Dr. Michael Miller received his D.D.S. from the University of Maryland School of Dentistry in 1974 and completed a general practice residency at the Veterans Administration Hospital in Houston in 1975. He authored a 3-year series of articles on bonding in the Journal of the Houston District Dental Society and has lectured internationally. Dr. Miller is a Fellow of the Academy of General Dentistry and a Founding and Accredited Member and Fellow of the American Academy of Cosmetic Dentistry, for whom he wrote the initial accreditation guidelines. He also has memberships in the International Association of Dental Research/American Association of Dental Research and the Academy of Dental Materials. He has contributed to several texts and is the co-founder/President of REALITYRATINGS & REVIEWS. Dr. Miller maintains a private practice in Houston, Texas and is a Clinical Associate Professor at the University of Texas School of Dentistry in Houston.
VIDEO - DUwHF #1263 - Michael Miller
AUDIO - DUwHF #1263 - Michael Miller
Dr. Ingrid Castellanos received her C.D. in 1983 and her Especiality in Orthodontics in 1989, both from Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico Facultad de Odontologia in Mexico City, Mexico. She has lectured internationally and holds memberships in the Academia Mexicana de Ortodoncia (Mexican Academy of Orthodontists), and the American Association of Orthodontists, in addition to being a Fellow of the World Federation of Orthodontists. Dr. Castellanos is currently the Publisher and in charge of coordinating product evaluations for REALITYRATINGS & REVIEWS.
Howard: it is just a huge honor to be sitting here with two of my role models idols and legends in dentistry we'll start with the ladies first Dr Ingrid Castellanos what yes the double is is like why esta Janice and the only D I ever got my life was in high school Spanish and my teacher was san martín and he told my mother I was linguistically retarded truth true story and Ingrid is a young she received her certificate what do you say in Spanish what's a dds in Spanish I was gonna say I could have said it just like that but I let Ingrid do it for me she got that in 1983 and her especially in orthodontics and 89 both from universidad nación Mitama new mexico faculty deontology Mexico City did I bet you that at all yes Nacional autónoma de Mexico una ventana here and she has lectured internationally and holds memberships in the International Association dental research academia Mexican the Don SIA Mexican Academy of orthodontist and the American Association orthodontist in addition to being the Fellow of the World Federation of orthodontist she is currently in charge of coordinating product evaluations and then my other idol mentor role model Michael B Miller DDS F ace G d/f AAA C D here is he does DDS from the University of Maryland dental school that was the first dental school in the United States were you in the first class almost almost he graduated in 1974 when did that school start it was it started in 71 no I'm not kidding no it's a it used to be called Baltimore College of Dental Surgery uh some time back in the 1800s yeah first I think Doc Holliday went to he was really Diaz yeah and he completed a general practice residency at the Veterans Administration Houston 1975 he authored a three-year series of articles on bonding in the Journal of the Houston District Dental Society and has lectured internationally dr. Miller is a fellow of the Academy of general dentistry a founding and accredited member of the AAA C D and as memberships an International Association of dental research American Association dental research and the academy general materials is contributor several taxon is a co-founder president of reality dr. Miller maintains a private practice in Houston Texas and his clinical associate professor at the University of Texas School of Dentistry but I want to give you my own your own biography for me so here's what it look like so I got out of school in 87 and crowns were made in gold and the new thing was this porcelain fused a metal crown which was all the new rage and they started going from amalgam fillings which last 38 years they decided to invent the aesthetic health compromise and make these really shitty plastic fillings that lasted five years that was their best idea and they can come out with all these composites they weren't taught to you in dental school you didn't know one case from the other and back in the day of that beginning birth of that cosmic revolution it was led by you Bob Stanley of Robert gamle of IVA Claire lvi and so I lived through that whole cosmetic revolution from probably 87 and I just got religion on because you would explain to every patient okay the silver filling this filling will be destroyed by bacteria and the silver one is half mercury they don't put that in any multivitamins and the other half is silver think silver diamond fluoride ten think Stan is right it's all antibacterial stuff and no matter how you explained it every Americans say I want the white one so they would buy this downgraded amalgam and you were the guy telling us which ones to buy and I want to tell you what you specifically did to me when I went down to your office in Houston I don't know if you remember when I was down there I might have had a hair remember me you know we're all getting getting up there Howard yeah I went down there and you know the most profound thing you did to me first changed my whole world is um I wasn't timing any of these deals I and and you sat me down with extracted teeth and I did it like I did it and there was no bond and then I did it following the instructions with a timer just a little thing of timer and then I do a timer thank God I have to do this forever really for 40 days and 40 nights and there's only like 15 seconds or something yes and then you would do the bond strength on it and like doubled I mean you do you saved thousands of fillings for me but I want to say and then you had a really magazine which was as big as the yellow pages and and now um you on your website I just want to just go over some of these guys I mean it's it's like it's like a who's who of dentistry I mean I can't say her name thinner pathos right what's her name it's Greek obviously a key she's one of our new ones Turkey Allen Bo Gaussian I mean say gold step my gosh the boost II see her he's from Germany right leave ooo start and the UK and Steven paws I mean my gosh it's just so many people David Horne Brook who did all the fillings in my mouth I could have gone to anybody in the world I chose that guy I'm George Friedman and Toronto Canada I mean it's just like a huge but I I was so excited I am when I started this show twelve hundred and fifty episodes ago you are the first guy asked on the show and it only took you four years but you finally made know we're finally here Howard well thank you for that so the wrong about your journey how did you go from dentists to reality dental materials guru how did that journey take place
Guest: the Cliff Notes version I'll give you a Cliff's Notes version is that back in the early eighties I was just a young practicing dentist God that got out of my residency in 76 and just had a regular family practice in Houston and but I always in the back of my mind I always said to myself do I really know what I'm doing how many dentists you think ask them ask that question to themselves I'm sure you have to I mean when you sit down with a patient and you're doing something do you really know that you're doing it the right way especially if you went through dental school which we all did and we learned the wrong way so I'm going through all these questions in my mind and so I got with another dentist in Houston this is back in the early 80s and I said we got to do something about this and so we we met for a few years on and off and then we finally published our first product evaluation book in 86 1986 and since that time we've opened up so for a while let me go back so for a while we used external research sources and I was never really really that keen on depending on other people's data because I know because in the scientific world data is is is collected in ways that we as practicing dentists don't understand I mean the scientific world does things way differently than we as real guys I call I call us real dentists how we do it so we open up our own research lab in Houston in 98 and since that time so that's about 20 years ago since that time we have literally revolutionized the way that dental materials are tested for practicing dentists and we've had a lot of help along the way we've had some some help from university folks we've had a lot of help from private practice dentists and the some of the dentists that you just mentioned were instrumental Josh Friedman David Horne Brooke Eddy Lynch and the UK he's titled on the show before you yeah so these these types of people I mean they're they're are big parts of what we do and so I believe that we are the only product evaluation service out there that not only doesn't charge for evaluations which keeps us totally independent so there isn't any charge for a manufacturer to send us products and we send it out to the evaluators we take apart the products in our lab we test not only whether the products are worthwhile to use in a general practice but we also test as you as you just alluded to we tested to the way that you that a dentist should be using the product because manufacturers they're you know they're very good at what they do but they don't always give us in the directions the best way to use their products you would think they would but they don't and we've over the years we have found many products we have found ways of using products using manufacturers products that actually work better and what the manufacturer tells you in the directions if you can even read the directions and the number of manufacturers have adopted our verbiage because we have a certain way of of giving advice to our to our members to our reality members and and now my students I've been at the at the dental school in Houston now for a little over five years and my task there is to try to teach students the absolute correct way to use the limited number of materials that the schools can can actually buy and and and calibrate the students the way that they should be using these once they get out into practice
Howard: all I want to know in the cliffnotes is where you found Ingrid you left Ingrid out of the story
Guest: so Ingrid came along and we were we we started the company in 86 and Inger came along in 89 yeah and it was just by serendipity Ingrid was had moved from Mexico to Houston and she actually came into my dental practice to as a as a temp to help me out and lo and behold we we we found out that there was quite a bit of synergism not only the bonding agent was that your clay the bonding agent you know we bought yeah yeah yeah we bonded I'm not gonna say anymore about how we bond is bonding photos are they in the textbook yeah yeah I thought it was interesting like you said they technology was new so I was observing him doing stuff and I have had a lot of questions because you know when I went to dental school we got like you said concise that's it we didn't have that so I was very interested in the new technology in a he Sheehan and all that so when I used to assist him sometimes I I asked a lot of questions so he started questionable what is you do what is what what did you do because he didn't know I didn't know she was a dentist oh yeah well back then women dentists weren't very common they were not they were not I'm telling you guys it just is what it is I mean a lot of people don't like what their grandparents did or what they did a century ago or two or three cents ago but it used to be a man's profession back then I mean it would have been it I don't think I ever saw a woman Dennis growing up in Wichita Kansas but
Howard: but I want to go back to um first of all um a lot of the young kids think I'm crazy bad-mouthing composites and a lot of older dentists actually believe that their composite in their magic hands last longer than amalgams you're a research junkie you Guest:quote dental research like these reverends quote the Bible was it an aesthetic health compromised it amalgams last longer than composites or not so the research unfortunately the research is few and far between on real clinical research when the restorations are done properly and that is a big deal like in our practice I mean I started to do for instance posterior composites and I was invited to speak to the Academy of operative dentistry back in the mid 80s on posterior composites because it was a very conservative group and nobody believed me that you can actually use composites and posterior teeth as a substitute for amalgam so here to put that in perspective when I graduated 87 before we could leave we had to sign an ethics statement that said using posterior composites was unethical and in the violation of the American Dental Association --tz-- that I started doing posterior composites back in about 8283 circa and it even before I started reality I said you know this type of material especially when the like heard the visible like shirt materials came out I actually was the first dentist in Texas that had to to have gotten one of the very original Prisma lights from what was then known as the LD caulk company okay and and it just seemed to me that there was there were ways of restoring these teeth conservatively and I used a nice till say it in my lectures the patient owns the enamel we owned the shruts the patient owns the enamel and this whole minimally invasive trend which you know I say trend I mean it's it's supposed to be new but it's exactly what I lectured to the Academy of operative dentistry about in the 80s about doing all these tunnel preps and leaving oblique ridges and doing slot preparations and leaving enamel when you could leave enamel and in the early 90s I wrote a tooth two-part series of articles for a journal that's not around anymore but it was called rest in peace GV black and basically I went down Black's principles and I debunked all blacks principles when it came to contemporary adhesive dentistry because I mean what is a self-cleansing area black had self cleansing area there is no self cleansing area of a tooth why would you extend a preparation for prevention that's BS there is no such thing as extending a preparation for prevention so so the the whole idea in doing posterior composites even with the early generation of composites was number one isolation nobody likes to use dental dams you notice we don't call them rubber dams anymore because we don't use latex there's a they click on Riverdance all dental dam now
Howard: because there's no rubber there's no rubber in it so that'll name dental days form a latex cuz they're non latex you know what I did to make myself work under rubber dam a hundred percent of the time you know I did back in 87 I actually attacked a rubber dam on the ceiling above me I could always say I always practice under em so they're not you see you doing their their mental cams so
Guest: so right from the start III said I mean I was just like everyone else I hated dams when I was in school because of the way they made you put them on we developed a much simpler way of putting on dams much more expeditious way and in our technique book we we have a technique book and in our technique book we actually have a step-by-step procedure of how to put on a damn quickly and and I mean you have to wait for anesthesia anyway but we're anyway
Howard: so wait you'd said that technique so if they go to reality ratings calm where is that
Guest: so it's under other links on the right side of the home page and if you other links so if you scroll down you'll see first is our monthly newsletter reality now and I believe right under that you'll find the techniques okay
Howard: so I see product categories by renew membership my favorites recent ratings most recent 14-day low I have to login yet the login oh I didn't know that yeah oh so that's the first time it's it's so funny we have five programmers and I can't believe how many times they'll show me something I'll say well when did you put that out there they go I've been on your side a dozen times I never even knew there's a place to login and richer but anyway if
Guest: I logged in so if you logged in there's a there's a right column so I need to register them so you need a register Ingrid's in charge of the whole membership field okay so just so there the first question Millennials in asks is why do you need to register what why when you register you have an access to everything you can see all the products we have on their evaluations products that we evaluate and you can see a little preview on it okay on how to use it you can do a side-by-side comparison you're trying to decide between a bonding agent like a cell fetcher you can compare maybe three products you are interested or four and you can see which one will fit better you practice okay can you explain the membership category though well we have the basic membership so when you register and you're able to see like a preview of all the products and then the next level is a premium membership as a premium member you are able to read all the evaluations also you can make comments on the products or you have a question you can pause the questions and you can post your own products too right we don't have and you will like and you really like it you can post a product and then we if you somebody else like you they can make a comment okay but explain explain to my homies why should they why should they go to reality ratings calm and be a member all the information you get about the products about all the products because you know there's so many new products coming at the market and then you have your rep coming and tell you well of course he's gonna say the product is great you know
Howard: I'll never forget this when I was in dental school I actually I don't know if I'll get in legal trouble saying this but I worked for Merrill Lynch and I won the Missouri wide deal of selling um IRAs and I only worked there because my wife worked there we were a senior and it was amazing so my whole spin was I get the newspaper and I'd look for everybody selling something expense like buh - yah - mercedes-benz and I call them up and I'd ask him about the boat and I and they're like where you in the market buying it and the market to buy it are you out of your freaking mind I'm a poor starving dental student I won't even have a job for another year I'm just down here working at Merrill Lynch trying to sell IRA that was my opening and it really really worked but it was amazing how back then I sat there and watched it when a stock was just turned out to be trashed the brokers got like double or triple Commission to get rid of it so what are they doing there they're calling their clients and so I always wonder you know when that rep is telling you you should buy products ABC is there a chance you might get a commission on that more than if she sold another product you're
Howard: you're asking me yeah they're there Millennials are there green yes they're there green I mean I ask it another way when you go to a seminar like I noticed whenever you go to these big meetings they always complain about how the attendance has been going down for years and years and years and then I show them their speakers and I say why does the nonprofit's have the same speakers but out in the private sector where guys are making you know ten thousand bucks so like how come you don't have any of them is there a correlation between if I'm gonna buy a big booth at your convention you're gonna have my speaker talking about my product and when the supply rep comes in she might be incentivized to sell this product over that product I mean is there anything nefarious going oh
Guest: no so in the first one there is there's nothing nefarious going on or nefarious you know these in Kansas so here's here's the real deal like I'll give you an example we just posted the one of our newest products was a new bleaching system from beyond international it's called paulus advanced ultra it's the only bleaching system with ultrasonic technology to to try to force the 35% hydrogen peroxide into teeth to make them whiter okay so it's a power bleaching system you have to buy their unit now you have to find that behind the we get to be registered first well you can use so here's the deal if you're a Premium Member a Premium Member it you either buy it for a year which is $99 or you can buy it monthly for $9.99 or you can buy it daily for 99 cents so you buy it for one day for just a 99 99 cents do you just want to come in say you want to check out one product but you don't really want to get a whole membership you don't want to go on you don't want to go into the almost 1300 products that we have on our site you're not really interested in all that maybe you just went to a lecture and somebody mentioned this hot new products so maybe you just want to check that out that's the only thing you want to do 99 cents well 99 cents will get you one day of total access to the entire site so but the point is is that I just read an evaluation from another dentist on this Poulos advanced ultra and everything was peachy cream it was wonderful you know go out and buy this system now I'm not saying it's not a good system I mean it actually is a pretty nice system but it's not it's it's not what they you know what you see in all the ads so we have know we know the people in beyond because they're they're actually based in Houston and they've asked us for advice we really don't give manufacturers advice but we do evaluate their products and we tell the truth about products we tell Dentist what it can do and what it can't do and that's pretty rare today because most of the other product evaluation services out there you know they're they may have a vested interest and we don't we have no vested interest any company
Howard: so but back back to the lectures um if if she just walked out a dead on kindergarten school two months ago if she went to a hundred lectures at her local state meeting what percent of the lectures do you think are paid commercials incentivized by the speakers have a side gig speaking for a company saying these products are the greatest when it's really their job and this is that not happen or does that happen
Guest: ninety-nine percent of lectures today on the circuit are paid
Howard: we don't make this up they should be wearing a NASCAR suit with all the they're telling you and you're just like oh he's so nice he's he's a real dentists and he came in lecture dirt no he didn't oh and what do you think their average honorarium is from the company
Guest: so it well it it would vary but I would I would venture to guess that if somebody is out lecturing for XYZ company and they're doing a lecture at the Chicago midwinter for instance they may get paid ten thousand dollars to do that
Howard: yeah and ten thousand dollars and you guys think he's Gandhi and you think he's just you know ba ba ba and and when those companies go rent the boost they say well we'll rent this area but we want three speakers and then when you sit here and say well here's a guy who's really sought after free enterprise free market oh no he's not he doesn't have any company of a sponsorship it's like I'm paying you a thousand dollars a year in dues and I have to listen to a commercial because the speaker didn't come with whoa what are my dues buying yeah I give you a thousand freaking bucks and I have to listen to a NASCAR guy who I wish would drive into a wall and he's not gonna wear his all of his disclosures and then these kids are like well did you hear what dr. sacred golden cow said it's like I mean am I cynical bastard or
Guest: so I'll give you one more example of speaking at the Rocky Mountain meeting in Denver several years ago and what years ago you waited till they legalize marijuana then you went and spoke for free when you're lecturing you know it's you know so so I mentioned a specific type of brand new impression material and the company marketing this impression material unbeknownst to me was sponsoring was partly sponsoring my lecture now when I say partly sponsoring my lecture my contracts are always with like the Dental Association I don't know who sponsors what okay so I was up there doing my normal lecture and I showed a picture of this brand new impression material that is supposedly has unbelievable tear strength never tears okay and I showed a picture of an impression that I had taken not too long before I lectured and it all the in all the patients and browsers the impression material was left there so it tore okay well when I was finished with the lecture the rep of this company came up to me and said I can't believe you killed us like this yeah we're sponsoring your lecture yeah and I go well first of all I didn't know you were sponsoring my lecture that's the first thing the second thing is that why don't you tell the truth about your products so rather than get on my back go back to the people who develop your products and tell them I just saw a lecture that shows it doesn't work the way that we're saying it's working so go back and figure it out you should be patting me on the back so this is endemic today and it was 99 I believe
Howard: it's 99 who's the one guy speaking the truth I mean you me yeah and they also do things like um they did you it to me all the time to say well we don't want to pay the other half you're on train because mrs. Whimple tonneaus offended well you know what i want to say i mean i call my show dentistry uncensored if you want someone to tell you what you want to hear well don't go listen to me don't go listen to you i remember one time i listen you let your nah it was a girl that I love Shelly Canada that's what she called you salty as she goes I love his salt as he no he's great hey the truth and the bottom line is what I and she's a great dentist she's a phenomenal dentist and she was on the show two years ago weren't and she told me she's gonna get you on the show two years ago let's not have much clout but the bottom line was I'm I mean you're a member of the American Dental Association you pay these guys a thousand freakin dollars and who do they have speak-o someone that's sponsored okay well if they're sponsored make him wear a NASCAR suit make him winter and say this is brought to you by taargus veterus dicor which you can cement with Durrell on I'm art glass can you can your mind the beers any of those yeah that there's there are many these are kids there
Guest: are many many disasters one baby is one that comes your mind probably advance cement so Vance was it advanced so advanced cement came out and it was kind of a a an advanced type of ionomer okay and they said that you could use it for cementing crowns for so many posts and all this sort of thing the one thing that and there was a DENTSPLY product the one thing the DENTSPLY did not do it did it did not test its expansion under intraoral conditions so what happened is that many people in many clinicians including Ingrid and me and including Alan Bogosian who is on our editorial team had not only crowns fracture from the expansion of this cement but teeth were fracturing when posts were cemented with this cement so we went back to DENTSPLY and we said you got to take this stuff off the market this is bad news we publicized it we were the only ones who publicized it we put the pictures I put pictures in my lectures and they took it back they looked at it and they said you're right we goofed least admitted they that they goofed and so there's another disaster you want to hear another disasters hourglass no not our class so Tiger structures No so the iCore no this one has to do with I bond I bond okay so when I bond first came out it was hailed as this amazing new bonding agent made in Germany and Ingrid and I knew the fellow who actually developed it in conjunction with her Reyes calls ER ok so we get it into our lab Indiana well now they're in India well is that well it was it was about know they're still based in
Guest: Germany as to you so all the products are still made in Germany most of the products so this so I bond comes in we get it into our lab in Houston in June okay and we sit down at our lab bench and we test it just the way we test thousands of other adhesives and we found that it had zero bond strength zero not I mean you we couldn't even get it to the in strong so we called calls ER back then it was her alias calls her and we said this stuff doesn't work you got to take it off the market so they go impossible so they got the inventor of Ibon who was a german professor they flew him to houston like two weeks later he sits down at our lab bench and he said you have to be doing something wrong and we said well okay show us what we're doing wrong because we don't publish anything unless we are a hundred and fifty percent sure that we're right so so he sits down at a lab bench he takes a he bonds with it and same thing total failure so he opens the bottle up and what happened was is that her Reyes did not do high temperature testing of this product so this is Houston Texas in June it's hot it's humid these bottles are being stored in hot warehouses the only thing that was left in the bottle was a solvent none of the monomers and the adhesive monomers were they were all pre polymerized at the bottom of the bottle well the inventor of the material he was livid he called them up he said you know you're ruining my invention blah blah blah and so they took it off the market they they reformulated and everything we just tested their brand-new I Bond Universal and let me tell you something that is a great product so Cole's er learned their lesson and this is one of the things that we would hope that a lot of manufacturers now some manufacturers don't like us and then they don't send us products anymore one example of that is called teen whale dent they decided that they didn't like what we said about their products so they stopped saying as products and they have some pretty good products and
Howard: how do you how do you fight back with them we just announced it to our membership that we can no longer recommend any call teen Weldon today so call 14 Wilden yeah
Guest: so we can no longer recommend anymore call teen well den products because we can't validate their efficacy anymore so if you buy a Colton Wilden product you're buying it at your own risk
Howard: so we just watched Danaher so you and I lived through I used to be Siemens they owned Sirona and best idea of the CEO siemens that they were over weighted in health care and under weighted in you know soap and shampoo so they spun off they spun off their Sirona and it did great and we just had another company spun off um Danaher decides that they don't want their dental division so they just spun it off this week under in vista and they raised five hundred and eighty nine million dollars so my first gut instinct is would you want to have parents that didn't love you I mean I wouldn't want to be held by dan earth like we're not in the dental business I mean it was really good for Sirona do you do you think Invista do you think getting away from Danaher that the company may be healthier or do you think that's a because you've seen the rodeo with Sirona and now they grew up and got married to densify their show is X right right so
Guest: so I'm very familiar with and Vista and this you know the the the breakup between nerds or the the spin-off if you will if their parents not love them so Danaher you know cyber on dental specialties if you remember used to be the parent company of kur and and back then Kerr was did amazing things curve was one of the absolute most amazing dental companies opted the bond as a adhesive was a groundbreaking material back in the early 90s Herculoids was a groundbreaking composite in the mid 80s and so so they had some really smart people working for them in their dental dental materials Center and they had good people running the company and and when Danaher took it over they they lost their way I mean there's no other way of saying it and our Germany's cave oh well they they cave oh so back in the day cave Oh was owned by the Kenton Bock company I'd not gotten back but the kaltenbach company kaltenbach family and we knew the people from the original family who owned cave oh we toured their facilities in Germany they had like three or four facilities Ingrid and I the ham pieces and and the units and and I mean they had exquisite stuff and and I have to tell you I mean lately the cave of stuff has not been as good as it used to be yeah thank ya I think you think I think they did this singer sewing machine - yeah in a day where it had the best brand because there's the best quality then free enterprise gets it and they start you know replacing all the metal parts with plastic parts and they milk that cow to wear now even though I'm Irish I'm embarrassed to own a Singer sewing machine so this is it's you know cave Oh unfortunately is a shadow of itself now now that they're spinning it off and they're going to be part of Invista I know the people who are running the company they're do you think who's the guy running the company you know his name well the let's say I just met this guy about a month ago I'm trying to remember oh geez you you got me on that one I I did meet him if you said his name I would be I would know I'm not saying his name a chicken dad didn't want to come on my show oh is that right well yeah so why he says why I don't think I can yeah you're the president of the company you can't come on my show yeah yeah how embarrassing is that um but yeah you should send a mirror all day here a mere day an email and say
Howard: come on dude you you just you got kicked out of the Danaher home you have some of the biggest brand names in all of dentistry my god I mean it's just a powerhouse of these these these companies and so what what are you gonna do are you just gonna milk the cow till it just drops dead or is it I mean what is your vision I mean what are you anything your business or some company I wouldn't ask you this this is I'm gonna try to get you in trouble with everyone when you take a company I'm already in trouble yeah you know they like Ingrid you know Ingrid's a whole lot nicer than I am but take a company just on merits I mean I know generalizations are bad unless it's about Irish food was true we're all drunks and
Guest: but like I've éclairs privately-held it's owned by a family and this is you know their public company they they got the numbers made does a company like a private company like Everclear can they have a longer span view or are they subject to the same shenanigans as a public company you know it's either ivic law or evil or depending on what side of the Atlantic you're on evil Clark so we call it evil for evil yeah no they're not evil no I'm not gonna I look evil Bob Ganley who I believe just retired right right so he's an old buddy of ours joints to sow ski who I'm sure you know George so George is a yeah these are these are old buddies good guys and and dedicated individuals look every company has has a vested interest in their products and I think Eva Clark came on to the zirconium evoke are like hygienists or hygienists like in the West to say or bitches I wasn't saying evil oh no no no this is like national viewers like in America you know in the East Coast it's barbiturates out west barbiturates yeah these goes it's hygienist out here it's hygienist so you're pronouncing ayiva clock versus evil here in the states we most people call it IVA Clara but if you're in Europe it's Eva Clara
Howard: and they call it Adidas shoes here and and Germany or adidas says it's a DDoS his name was Adolf das but after over to the Adolf name Adolph Coors here in Colorado said maybe we should not sell Adolph Coors beer and they dropped the Adolf so adidas was Adolf dass he dropped Adolph and went to his nickname was Adi Adi das over here everybody says it's adidas in a sense were all day long I dream about soccer but so so over there in Europe they pronounced at Porsche and how do they pronounce I have a car evil or evil are yes evil are I think that you could pronounce it right since they're from over there
Guest: you would think but I'll tell you they have the world's greatest Factory yeah I've been there Iron Man you see everything yeah yeah yeah so can I make one comment about
Howard: God so you know I've lectured in 50 countries and my boys always get mad when I say today dad you've been saying 54 for kiddin I was in grammar school I don't know how many would have been up pretty much so many I'm when I go when I was little when dad went on vacation we would go to the greatest theme park like Six Flags Over Texas and I'd like to watch something made so I saw every fact from curers to bud when we went to buy a station wagon we drove to Detroit got on a golf cart and they pulled us alongside our station wagon and we got to see the whole you know just it salsa so my boys have been in if you make something and you sell in dentistry we've been there and when you go into a German manufacturing place out of Switzerland Liechtenstein Germany they don't have a marketing department they have a ph.d department and their motto is you will just build it so damn good it'll sell itself and then when you go to these American companies the lion's share they don't have a ph.d department but you'll go into cells room when there's 30 guys and a sales leader and they got a thermometer and they're dialing for dollars and then you go to China to Asia and they're like okay we're gonna make this so cheap that you'll just buy cause it's so cheap and I've been saying for thirty years that the Americans need to hire they need to become more German and higher pH D's and keep an eye on cost and the Chinese I mean when you go into Walmart name one brand name from China well well I mean one Chinese brand name one Chinese name one Chinese brand name there are any that's what I always tell them in giant said you know they're American brand name everything so cheap sir making nicer stuff and build your first brand they don't have I mean you go to South Korea they got high end a they got Kia they got LG they got all these brands they don't have brands in Ch I'm like raise your price and make it higher quality and the Germans you always like you know you should get a marketing DeBartolo it's like the Germans they make us a bit but I mean when you walk into a German Switzerland anything in Scandinavia Copenhagen Denmark three shape Helsinki Finland plan mecca when you walk in any of those factories it's like you're in a Star Wars movie and then when you come back to America it's kind of hillbilly and if you don't believe me look at a Mercedes Benz and then look at a Chrysler and if you still have any questions I can't help you but anyway um is there anybody we haven't offended yet on this show is there some work well you do think the Germans do you think the Germans and Scandinavia are more focused on quality and the Americans and the Chinese
Guest: well the Chinese is a different story let's leave the Chinese because I can tell you you know categorically that that that many of the things other than maybe iPhones you know and of course it's a it's an American company directing the Chinese but any Chinese products that come out of China they leave a lot to be desired but I would say that here in the states I mean ultra dent makes great products how many PhDs work at Ultra done well name him that's a good question we'll answer it he has 1,100 employees how many PhD you really tell me their names Oh drive that I'll Drive you there tonight to shake his hand that doesn't exist okay but don't get hung up on PhD so let me tell you something I mean you're talking to somebody that's been on the inside of a dental school for about five and a half years now and there are many PhDs these are very bright individuals but just because you have a PhD does not mean that you know anything about dentistry but it even if doesn't know no it does not raise a chance you know like friend says I'll give you an example altered and created the Velo okay a lot the curing late absolutely the best curing light on the market they created it based on dance vision and the folks that they have in their engineering department who are not PhDs their practical people they said okay what do you need in a curing light he didn't listen to me right away and he made the original one with a with a tip that was a little too small but then he listened and he came out with the Velo Grande which has a 12 millimeter tip it's it's made out of this anodized aluminum that you can throw against the wall because we don't know what anodized alona means well just a hard it's just a hard aluminum really hard aluminum aircraft style aluminum and so so you can take you can take a Velo and literally drop it and dental offices that we drop lights all the time let's face it yeah I mean and so he knew we needed lots of power we needed something that was indestructible that a big tip he sells it for a little too much money he that's he probably should bring it down a little bit but having said all that he doesn't have phd's designing this stuff they have a lot of practical people working for Dan and Dan Zaza rugged state I mean they they went out there with nothing he's a rugged guy because
Howard: I always say well why do you love American you don't like say Communist China or Russia freedom of speech so Dan goes out there and tells his public view of what he thinks of Trump and it really back did you hear about that in a backlash his company yes it's like dude if you so so so you're not for freedom of speech oh everybody's just supposed to suck up to what were you the Anointed One and the Anointed One always has the same thing in common the anointed ones are never tethered to empirical evidence are possibly they could be wrong but you're either for free speech or you're not so if you if you're not gonna buy ultra net products because he doesn't like Trump then then you're not an American and you're you're you're kind of gross yeah I mean I I mean I remember that remember that of that movie about um the guy that owned hustler yes Larry Flynt Larry Flynt yes and the Supreme Court did their job they said well you don't like anything in this magazine but he does have the freedom to print magazine and everybody on the Supreme Court said he's a gross guy and everything in his magazine is gross but you know what's grosser to take away his right to free speech and so when you're some redneck hillbilly backward-ass Texan dentist practicing across the street from him and you know like Dan Fisher because he didn't say what you wanted to hear about your president well you're not even an American and if you do hate Trump then you should only buy a alternate products you know I think
Guest: I think it hurt and and I mean I've known Dan for Ingrid and I have known Dan for 30-some years as I'm sure you have and I'm not sure look Dan owns the company dan is very outspoken on other things and so are you well I'm out I know Congress yeah yeah I mean I'm outspoken on dentistry you know I keep politics out of reality I mean because so do we people don't buy reality don't go onto our website because I support this candidate or this cause or
HOward: something because you're all exists right well you you know that's obvious us but you know what you do I mean I've asked every patient why did you leave the last dentist why did you come here religion sex politics and violence don't ever talk about it and your sisters a man shouldn't have said that I had a patient that I didn't place on Monday guess why he left last of us you're never gonna believe this in a million years he sang country music while he worked on her oh and she hates country music and I know that at us he can he's in a band he can play it sing it amazing but I mean so yeah so no religion sex politics violence and never country music but I will say that I will say this
Guest: you know today especially in in dental schools for instance you can barely say anything to anybody about anything you can't put your hand on someone's shoulder and say good job you can't compliment patients because you never know what's what somebody is going to what's going to be offensive to somebody may your instruments on there you are I mean yeah I mean it's gone way too far and you know I'm known in in our dental school as the mean guy because I tell the students if they did a great job I told that you did a great job and if they did a crappy job and they didn't follow my directions I look at them in the eye and I say you did a crappy job today and you didn't follow my directions and you're treating human beings this is not game time this is the real deal and you need to either take this seriously or you need to apply for a greater position at Walmart something about the only faculty member the thing that they allow to say those types of things but the fact is is that we the the the the younger generation of Dennis especially the students today their education is so much different than the education they that we all had and I'm not sure know when we were in dental school that Dead Sea was only sick I know I know I know it's an up and it's in some cases it's kind of scary on the on some of these new graduates getting out there I'm concerned about it and I've raised my concern so so in all dental school education better than in the 80s or worse compared to the Graduate the ones who graduated in 80 so I would say in in the basic clinical skills probably not as good on maybe some of the some of the the skills the interprofessional skills you know communicating with I just went through a workshop I was a I was one of the faculty members in charge of a workshop with a social worker a pharmacist and a physical therapist teaching dental students how to communicate with these other professionals so is that going to make them necessarily a better technical dentist yeah I'm not so sure about that so I think in some areas we probably still have a long way to go with the current generation of young dentists
Howard: and you have a daughter 21 if she said I want to go to dental school what would you tell her you say it's a good idea that's crazy idea
Guest: so we've had this conversation our daughter is a senior at Texas A&M; she's a chemical engineering major and she loves it but she did say to me and to Ingrid one day she goes well daddy you know if it was she was kind of joking around but she goes you know if I don't make any chemical engineering I can always go to dental yeah and it was kind of like well honey it's not exactly like that I mean you need to want to be a dentist and she's been around Ingrid and me you know for all these years she's worked in our research lab we have put her to two at the lab bench he has done bonding tests she did actually an internship for a dental company in German for an entire summer two summers ago so she knows all about that type of stuff is it a good idea I still think that there is a lot of opportunity in dentistry but you know I have to say that I think a lot of the corporate dentistry is is it's a bad trend I understand the trend but I think it's a bad trend Howard: so what why do you why do you think it's a bad trend
Guest: because the dentists now are just they're just employees yeah they go to the DSOs the Aspen's and the local ones and they don't get to really make decisions for themselves actually I met with one of our recent graduates not too long ago she was a she graduated two years before this she asked me to meet with her and she told me that after being and working in corporate for two years that she feels like she doesn't she's she was lost she didn't know what to do cuz she hated working in corporate and she was just asking my advice on how she can break out of that stranglehold and the other thing that's really bad about the students today is that they get out with so much debts the debt is strangling these dental students so they're not able in many instances to just go out and maybe do a residency for a year or two and then start their own practice I mean that used to be the SOP but today it's rare that a young Dennett's can do that if they're going to be in the urban areas now they're still I'm in Texas we're in Texas and a lot of the students fan out through Texas in a lot of the small towns and there's still a lot of opportunities there but let's face it I mean most dentists today want to practice in urban areas
Howard: yeah the Millennials do they want to practice in urban and but back back to your site so you website reality ratings calm and this site not only features all the unbiased product evaluation you've come to rely on when choosing products your practice but it includes many of the items you have been asking for such as customized product comparison grids enhanced product images and videos and for the very first time never submitted members submitted reviews well so you know google reviews are big what's the other one they also yelp you helped even though i've never seen a live human being ever use yelp i I hear it's a thing but um I always test everything in my own world like but um my my old dog friends that I drink and watch football games with I mean we've been reading your reality catalogue forever it has helped me so much through the the cosmetic revolution and then we went into the digital revolution you know so I've lived through the cosmetic revolution and then I went through the digital revolution now I think we're going through the DSO revolution which I don't think so revolution I think the DSO thing's a joke because I'm net number one you and I remember you're an orthodontist you remember working on externship America where Lazarus I got a big line of credit about a bunch of old worth it on us out when they retired replacing with new graduates was the only one that made it to the New York Stock Exchange the whole thing ran into the ground and dallisa because they were buying out old dogs like us three and replaced them with some punk-ass kid that just came out of school who has no skin in the game and dentistry is a it's it's a very hard job and when you go to a seminar the associate dentist sits there the whole time on snapchat and the owner dentist is sitting up taking notes and the the so you either have skin in the game or you don't chick-fil-a you own your own store you only get one store you have to be married with a kid it to be married with a kid because they want you born in this city starvin hungry you're only getting one this isn't some subway game where you're gonna have 12 of them and not manage any of this is freaking chick-fil-a which I never saw would come out of nowhere and double McDonald's I mean I remember when Wendy's over to Burger King and my whole life I'm like wow Wendy's was always third place and they only got the second place for an hour and then they're back to third cos chick-fil-a so so nobody there's not one DSO that could go public and I'm really excited about this next contraction because no one can predict the future I can't tell you if I told you what Ingrid's gonna buy you for Christmas you we'd all know that's crazy nobody anybody who tells you where the stock market's gonna go is insane but I don't know what Ingrid's gonna get you for Christmas but I bet she gets you something for Christmas and your next birthday there will be another economic contraction there are always ours I mean I lived through 8087 the y2k Lehman Brothers and right now your healthiest DSOs if you log on to Wall Street like Heartland they consider that debt junk so this next contraction all these highly leveraged dsos that are already sitting on junk under these conditions it's gonna wipe out half of them all the high leverage it and what they're all gonna come back to and learn is that um when your employee with no skin in the game you're not gonna try that molar end oh you're not gonna log onto reality ratings icon and make 99 bucks to make sure because the reason I want to make sure it's let me tell you what my stung in the lights are when I go to school the smartest guys in cosmetic dentistry were saying oh yeah she's pretty like Ingrid just do dicor crowns and see madam would err along here's somebody I had to cut off and redo for free and then you were talking about the coefficient thermal expansion uh remember hourglass of course I don't know what Targus veterus means that I know TARDIS and vectors hated each other they got divorced a minute you see medet in their mouth and when you have skin in the game when you work for Aspen or Harlan you don't give a though you are an owner-operator and I have the same location for 32 years yes how many art glass died core and target vectors I cut off and redid for free you know the answer is all of them every freaking one of them actually vectors wasn't too bad it was at the bottom line is when you when you tell me that like the big news day is that Walmart's opening up a dental in offices dental Walgreens - yeah well is that the first time Walmart's ever joined to open up a dental office is this is this moment in Sears is it yeah Sears I mean we know what I'm into Sears is the greatest thing about being old besides high blood sugar I probably have a lump-sum where the needs examined is that I've seen every rodeo at least twice and it's gonna be third time and nobody's gonna go public having a bunch of the employee dentists who don't even give a if the product doesn't work you have to be an owner operator in a small town to go to reality ratings calm because you start using a product that doesn't work and your kids are going to school with them and you sit next to him at church guess who they're gonna come back and you know who invented the warranty it was it was Sam Walton and you know what his autobiography was called it was called made in America and everything was made in America and you know why he invented the warranty because they were they started in and and some small town in Arkansas what was it called a Bentonville Arkansas my dad used to take me there he said my dad told me and I quote you always try to get back to Mecca or capitalist we're gonna drive capitalism and go trout fishing and we did and and and nobody had warranties a time Sears Gibson's T gon owned it and some lady like Ingrid bought a pair of shoes the hill busted off and the lady walked up to Helen our mrs. Walmart yeah I was Sam Walton and Helen well then handed her the shoe back said I bought this husband from her husband a week ago look at the hill and I went to take it back he said they don't do refunds no one refund so I'll tell you what I'll never buy anything from your store again so what Ellen dish came home you're taking the store bag and he said well I didn't make it so he immediately worked back from there and then next time the guy came to selling tennis shoes he goes yeah give me 10 but give me this one so he pushed quality up the supply chain and he said and I don't see any you have to be an owner to think like that and when I go in and I see associate dentist they don't want to try to take out the tooth they don't want to try to do the molar end oh they sure as hell aren't gonna care if the product lasts or not if the product fails they're not gonna have to rework of it if you show me a business model that scaled out and took over Wall Street where nobody had any skin in the game please email me at Howard at dental town comm I'd like to freaking know what Disney movie you just watched while eating edibles because it doesn't exist but
Guest: I gotta tell you something this goes beyond dentistry though I'm sure you know this you know one of our neighbors is a is a vet and he told me that his associate just left and he said he wasn't worth a damn anyway you know the owner of he owns the the vet owns his practice he had an associate working for him sound familiar and just the other day in in the dental school we had a a ER doc who was the husband of one of our dental students and this ER doc works for several different hospitals and some of these emergency centers and he's an employee he didn't even know who red Duke was a red Duke is a legend in emergency medicine in Houston up there with Cooley and DeBakey de Bakey red Duke was he was a character he just died and so I mentioned red Duke to this young physician you know the faintest idea who he was and so it's not just dentists it's not just den three it's medicine its veterinary medicine and the lawyers are even worse well let's face it that's they're the worst of all so so I think it's somehow you have to have and you hit the nail on the head you have to have skin in the game if you don't have skin in the game it's game over
Howard: so you're talking about Michael DeBakey yes and Michael DeBakey I went to Creighton University with his uh - was it his son whose grandson I think it might have been his grandson is there a dentist out there now and Houston on DeBakey
Guest: I don't think so Vic Cooley so cool Denton Cooley was to bake his big rival they're both heart surgeons they worked in competing hospitals and so so and and actually the Cooley family are the ones that developed Coe polite I'm sure you remember cope alight so so it's there's there's some pretty pretty old names in in the Houston medical so
Howard: so just to summarize we went way over an hour so reality it's um it's mostly restorative adhesive dentistry I mean is that dental equipment as it is an x-ray machines give a give a succinct deal what it is
Guest: so we have about a hundred and fifteen categories of products we right now we don't have any hundred and fifteen categories of products yes so we have almost 1,300 products evaluated in our our sites and so it from an equipment standpoint of me we have hand pieces like I said we have curing lights we have digital sensors we have inter all cameras we have sandblasters bleaching yep like you said bleaching equipment we have a lot of different materials so there's a there's it runs the gamut but the reason we changed the site from reality aesthetics which is what it which is what it was to reality ratings and reviews is because we are expanding our purview and that's why we have opened up the reviews so the reviews that come in from members are all vetted by me so it's not like they're posting something on what's the most popular one out there the Yelp Yelp yeah so it's not like they post something on Yelp and nobody puts any eyeballs on it so we do have rules on what they can post on our site but if it's good information we want to we want it we want our members to have it
Howard: so it's um it's basically what it is it's social come confirmation they know that when the sales rep comes in the office and gets you by yourself that it can be predatory you don't need you know it's not transparent you know like people will tell me that and I'll be at a at a convention and all open up dental town I'll say man that is awesome will you post that right here and I'll open up the deal I'm sitting here with so-and-so go ahead and tell me and post well you know so they you know a lion when they're gonna eat you they try to separate you from the herd yes and then they kill you and so it's called transparency and the same people whenever governments don't get transparent has Poland what happened when they didn't know what Germany was up to you know I'm so you want transparency because when you're transparent you do things in the bathroom you wouldn't do at the kitchen table you know I mean there's just there just difference there and so you want transparency so they want social confirmation and I also think that's why dental town we were four years ahead of Facebook and everybody saw face was gonna kill you dental town has still grown a thousand members a months and say launch Facebook we're just coming up to two hundred fifty thousand and one of the big deals is that you can still be anonymous I mean on Facebook they don't want to it first of all and Facebook if I say hey your product sucks will you're just gonna delete me from the group and banned me well you can't do that on Denton I'm gonna but a lot of people don't want the conflict they don't want to say my name is George Smith I'm a dentist here on this city and I bought this product and it was a nightmare and it sucked and you know so so we no one's anonymous to me we know who you are when you register on dental town and we ping your email address every month so as soon as your email goes dark you can't post on dental town anymore and so I think that you practice by yourself that was the whole deal downtown with dental town calm no one will ever have to practice solo again and if you're an owner operator and you own your own business you'll be around for 30 years because America is only 5% of the population they spend a hundred eight billion last year fixing their teeth the planet has eight billion people two million dentists who spent half a trillion dollars in their mouth so Danaher wants to get out of the dental business because that they don't see a market they're real I mean are you completely free I'm so glad Danaher cinema because I would hate living I could you imagine being a child and you know your parents don't love you that would just be so devastating I'm glad so only the owner operators are gonna join if you want to get the dental associates to join this you need to go talk to heart brick workmen of Heartland Steven thorne of Aspen and saying can you get a group membership have you talked to them about that because I lecture sometimes for Invisalign and
Guest: I go to these groups and one of the problem is like you were saying they want to use some of the products but the doctor said we don't use we don't allow to order the products its management who ordered the products and we use that but yes we men to them they were contacted via email and Assam will be happy to help you don't it okay your dentists learn because I know
Howard: I know the only owner operator at Harlan Meadows Rick workman and he doesn't want to pay for all this I mean he doesn't want to these disasters that you talked about with Bonnie agents and things like that I mean God if I in fact you know what I always thought I always thought Delta Dental I always say you know Delta Dental but they pay for what what percent of Dentistry do you think they paid for in America Delta yeah a lot what do you think it is
Guest: I'd say 40 percent well yeah I mean maybe they're there
Howard: maybe they pay 20 percent but the other 20 percent of revenue is people coming in and paying their co-payments and the rest of it they it's a huge amount yeah how is that my god why don't they they should make dental town online see for free because when this dentistry goes bad and that's where I would I would answer this question um so when you and I were little only all three got out of school there was no internet there was no AOL dial-up and to me going back in my childhood the first neatest technology that they ever came out with was the remote control because when we were little your dad wouldn't change the channel change of three and then to a twelve and then and then the reception company you had to stand there as some reason the antenna remember nobody just held the antenna it worked I don't know what my body was doing with you with the electromagnetic waves but and then the next cool thing was the automatic garage door opener because every time you go to the house you know you had to jump out of the car and go lift up this four million pound wooden door in the rain yeah yeah I never saw any of this happen but we're about you know I always thought it was a disservice that you know I would do a filling but interest Eagle soft open dental they don't ask you well what material was it what bonding agent was it what's going on here I mean it was basically all of her records are just about who owes who might much money and I thought well why aren't they freaking asking what material but now around the corner the internet was the last big thing that was 94 to 2000 so we're getting ready to have an another huge correction try to read business cycles just as shooters one of my favorite economists and got a Nobel Prize in Economics on business cycles business cycles happen because look who's making all the decisions crazy monkeys and humans are more wild animal than they are humans made with these whatever I mean they're they're wild fork enamels and crazy animals do crazy things and that's why you have a recession every ten years to clean out all the malfeasant this is making but the next revolution of the next big thing is artificial intelligence and it's gonna be programmed with Python it's gonna bits about cloud computing big data machine learning algorithms and we're gonna get close to where Delta is finally gonna pull their head out of their butt and they're finally gonna sit there and say well you know um if I have an endodontist do this molar root canal in 60 months five percenter extracted I have a general dentist do it it's 10% but if I have Ingrid do that right now she's an orthodontist 20% of her molar canals are extracted in five years and I think they're gonna I think that's the next wave where they're gonna sit and say Howard you're a nice guy you're nice Dennis your patients love you but we're not paying for any root canals or implants with you because it's not a return on investment and then it will go step farther and saying well what composite are you putting in there no we're not gonna use the targets vectors art glass eye bond do you think that's the next thing is the third-party payers like Medicaid Medicare Delta saying we paying for that
Guest: well they're already doing that with drugs I mean they tell you which drugs you can get so if your if your physician write you a prescription for a certain medication and the insurance doesn't think that they think that well that's too expensive or that's really there's a there's a another medication that is just as good but it costs a whole lot less even if there's no proof of that but they think it's really the problem with institutional medicine health care and it's even going to get worse under Medicare for all which I'm not a proponent of but the fact is is that this is the way things are going so even if we hold it off for a while I do think that maybe sometime in the next 20 or 30 years yes there is going to be a dictation or the government entities or insurance entities which could be one and the same are going to dictate what you can use and what you can't use and I mean it's guy I agree with you 100% ai is going to change everything and the way that all these companies are going to sell products are going to change everything but let me just say one thing about I wanted to get in about this digital revolution so this you know everyone is talking now about intraoral scanners you know we're gonna scan preps instead of putting in the goopy stuff but the problem with this and I gave a lecture at NYU a number of years ago about high-tech stuff and I said well don't even think about using high-tech stuff if you can't do a basic prep ok but even worse is that scanners mean that you're going to be cutting teeth down and now you have this trend like I said minimally invasive dentistry which really isn't new but it is the state it is the the standard of care around the world using things like SDF for instance which was kept out of the US for how many years by the FDA when it was used in Asia for 30 years I mean figure that one out so I think that all these there's going to be a convergence of technologies here and not all that is going to be bad so not cutting down teeth and trying to put say SDF and a sealant on a tooth even if it has an active carious lesion may not be bad treatment it may actually be optimal treatment for many people around the world because it's going to save a lot of misery and but the people who make these scanners they don't want to hear that so I'm not anti digital but I do think that this whole trend towards it's let's face it I mean it's a it's a way of furthering your practice and listen we've been capitalist I mean I still have my practice I mean I still practice two days a week so I'm not I'm not against making money but I am against the this a lot of the concepts that are coming out where we are being too aggressive and so I wanted to get that in before we okay last question it goes to Ingrid who is a orthodontist
Howard: last question what do you think of the smiles drug club going
Guest: oh I'm not sure about it and especially there been a lot of problems because sometimes it's not control so I think there's some issues on that they have to be control another thing I want to say it is on reality we also give a complimentary membership to students dental students because we want to help them we know like he would say they owe a lot of money as long and then the question everybody's asking is on that name reality did you steal that from Albert Einstein yeah I heard that word first from Albert no no Albert yeah he had nothing to do with it we were just sitting around one day and always talks about well the reality of the situation is and this was in 1983 so before all reality TV and all this sort of thing
Howard: so hey it was on just a huge honor for you guys come on thank you very much thank you for having us Howard this is great we loved it