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1354 Keys to Effective Marketing with John Pohl, MBA : Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

1354 Keys to Effective Marketing with John Pohl, MBA : Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

2/13/2020 3:00:00 AM   |   Comments: 0   |   Views: 81
John Pohl was born and raised in Bemidji, MN, the home of Paul Bunyan and Jane Russell (not necessarily in that order). In 2007 he decided to pursue a long-time dream and open a strategic marketing agency focused on the dental industry. John named the agency 14th Floor Solutions and made himself the CEO: Chief Elevator Operator. Over the past 13 years John has had the good fortune of working for a wide variety of dental clients, many of whom remain clients. Most importantly, John has been married for 38 years to Mary, whom he first met in grade school, whose twin sister married his best friend from prep school, and whose father was his 7th grade basketball coach and 10th grade football coach. John and Mary have two children: Max, a teacher and entrepreneur living in Tokyo, and Lizzie, who works as an analyst for the Office of the Mayor in New York City.

VIDEO - DUwHF #1354 - John Pohl

AUDIO - DUwHF #1354 - John Pohl

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Howard: it's just a huge honor for me today to be podcast interviewing John Pohl he is the founder and chief elevator officer of 14th floor solutions I swear to God when I saw chief elevator officer it took me like two minutes to figure out that it was CEO chief executive officer chief elevator officer of 14th floor solutions born and raised in Bemidji Minnesota it's pretty close Bemidji  Minnesota is that a suburb of Minneapolis St. Paul yeah it's about four hours north of Minneapolis Eightball no Lake Elmo is Army you know where Lake Elmo is no I dunno anyway it's a suburb of Minneapolis St. Paul my sister's a cloistered Carmelite monastery monk there so I always have to fly into Minnesota and go bother Patterson dental for four hours in one minute or 3m for four hours one minute's make a tax deduction and then go visit my sister and that where you were born was the home of Paul Bunyan and Jane Russell not necessarily in that order after getting his scholarship to attend Phillips Exeter Academy in New Hampshire for his last two years of high school he moved to California to study economics at Claremont McKenna College where he took a course from none other than Peter Drucker you met Peter Drucker I did unbelievable well got to come back to that he was my one of my first earliest business idols he convinced the University of Chicago Graduate School of Business to let him enter following his junior year at Claremont at Chicago he majored in marketing and finance and audited economics courses taught by God Nobel Prize winner Milton Friedman and George Stigler graduating with ten job offers it was a good time to get an MBA degree he started his career marketing so with Dial Corp here in Phoenix Arizona over the next several years his career stops included working as a marketing director for both the E and J Gallo winery in California and Kellogg's Company in Battle Creek Michigan returning the dial to serve as VP Marketing and moving to Chicago to take on the challenge of turning around copper electronics one day in 2003 John received a head on her call about a job as a marketing in cells for Hugh Freedy well he had no desire to leave the consumer products world they had under convinced him that there was great opportunity for growth within the dental industry and that he free was a very special company with an unmatched reputation for quality he was intrigued by the fact that Ron Saslow who Freidy's second-generation president was determined to hire someone from the consumer products industry the industry many people consider to be the most advanced in areas of marketing strategy and creativity John hit it off with Ron with the company's end CEO Howard wax and with Ron's dad dick the CEO emeritus he joined the company in the spring of 2003 and enjoyed four wonderful years there Ron Howard and Dick were very open to new and more strategic and more creative approaches to marketing as well as the stepping of the companies rate of product innovation as a result the company set sells and profit records and grew a double the industry rate for all four years despite in a way because of his success in 2007 John decided to pursue a long-term dream and open a strategic marketing focused on the dental industry  was very supportive and agreed to be his first client John named the agency 14th floor solutions and made himself the CEO chief elevator officer the agency's tagline elevate your business over the past 13 years John has had the good fortune of working for a variety of dental clients many of whom remain clients he also has several non dental clients 'as services available on the 14th floor include developing marketing strategies creating ads and literature designing websites assembling sales networks writing press releases and holding PR events managing social media media conducting market research creating trademarks and logos and creating videos for sales meetings or online distribution most importantly John has been married for 38 years to Mary think of all the money you've saved staying married to Mary with whom he first met in grade school whose twin sister married his best friend from prep school and whose father was a seventh grade basketball coach and tenth grade football coach John and Mary have two children max a teacher and entrepreneur living in Tokyo and Lizzie who works as an analyst for the office of the mayor in New York City my gosh I could go on and on about you I still have a whole another page I also I also love your LinkedIn profile where you say after thinking about this off and on for many years in 2007 he decided to leverage his extensive experience as a senior marketing executive for several highly successful companies and started 14 to 4 solutions you're out your specialties are advertising branding business plans marketing strategy packaging public relations I'm so excited to get you on this show because you know when I got out of school you know the  competition that was intense was someone like John and Mary across the street have been serving their customers and patients rights their whole life and all this stuff and they had to wear many hats usually John would be the dentist and Mary would be the wife now you're competing against dsos that have a thousand locations like Heartland and  Aspen and Pacific and they got an entire marketing department filled with people to do this how does can a debt so my first opening question to you is can an individual solo practicing dentists compete with marketing and advertising against the big boys

John Pohl:  absolutely I heart I really am convinced it can for couple reasons one is that and this is not to take a shot at the DSOs but with just like any industry in my opinion and this is very subjective the quality of marketing is not very good anywhere in my opinion when you watch the Super Bowl you know a couple weeks ago ton of ads and these are multi-billion dollar companies with big  ad agencies spent millions of dollars on these ads and most of them weren't very good advertising they might have been entertaining they may not have been but the overall quality of the marketing that is being put out there even by the biggest companies in the world I don't think is generally always all that good so I wouldn't be intimidated by a big DSO and their their big corporate ad agency because you know the chances are they're not necessarily doing all that great of a job from a marketing standpoint in terms of really connecting with the audience the other big factor is the fact that for a patient you know when you're going to see the dentist's they're going to see the dentist you're not going to see a corporation you're not going to a big group of practices that are all interlocked you know it's really about your experience as you visit that dentist as you interact with that dentist in the office the staff whether it be while you're in the building while you're scheduling your appointments while you're doing all the other things that aren't failing and having a relationship with a dental practice and it all comes down to how does that individual practice treat its patients the fact that a you know a sister DSO practiced across town or across the country may have to be doing something as certain way that doesn't really matter it's not relevant to your patients so you can do I'm convinced every bit as good a job if not better at marketing if you will at taking care of your in recruiting and keeping happy your patients as is any DSO or any other organization I 

Howard: got to remember my listeners are a quarter of them are still in dental kindergarten school and so a quarter of or that and the rest are all under 30 and they still struggle with just your terminology when you bounce back between marketing and advertising and even when they read I mean they say David Ogilvy is the father of advertising then they say Philip Kotler is the father of American marketing I mean so help  the kids out is there a difference between advertising and marketing or is it a synonym 

John Pohl: well I think most people would say that advertising is a component of marketing that advertising is a component of marketing right marketing is the bigger picture if you will and it really has to do with how you portray yourself whether it's a brand like Dial soap or Kellogg's Frosted Flakes or whether it's a dental practice on Main Street marketing is all about trying to create a an image a feeling about your  service in the minds of the people that you are targeting and of course in the case of the dental practice its patients so it's how they think about you it's  your story in fact one of the best lines I ever heard was that marketing is really storytelling people love stories in in just about any walk of life and even when you talk about something like a dental practice I mean I never practiced as a story the story it has to deal with you know all the different aspects of that practice you know the not only the doctor and or doctors and the staff but their backgrounds the types of services that they provide the way they provide those services the way the patient feels when they enter the building when they're greeted by the receptionist either a person or maybe on the phone every aspect of how they are exposed to the practice how they come into contact with the practice affects their at patients thinking about and feeling about that practice 

Howard: this made David Ogilvie's day cuz you just basically said he's I he's 1 up of a philip kotler  

John Pohl: when I worked at Gallo I actually met David Ogilvy he actually is agency Ogilvy & Mather was one of Gallo's ad agencies when I was back in the wine business so I example because

Howard:  I raised four boys and I used to when they were little after we went to a wine tasting deal we went back to the room and I got grapes green and grape and you know they all were taste them and then we blindfolded all four boys and it was totally random they couldn't even tell if it was great then because I was sitting I came from dental school where we learn neural physiology anatomy and  dr. Bernard Butterworth taught us that by time you're 65 most of all those tastes and smell receptors are dead yet you have all these old judges with white hair and they all look half dead swishing the wine around and smelling it with their non-functional nose and here's my eight-year-old and that can't even tell they're wearing a green and a grape and so the whole thing is the story telling why most story telling it really is that me actually 

John Pohl:  I remember this for my wine days on a blind basis if you an adult a wine drinker has his or her eyes blindfolded and they're in there drinking wine many of them even if they know a lot about wine not only can they not necessarily tell a say a Cabernet from a a merlot or Pinot Noir in all red wines a lot of times that a blind basis they can't tell a red wine from a white wine and these are white so that's that's the the how easily our our our senses can complete tricks on us and so there are so many things that go into appreciating a wine what you know that what you think you're enjoying about it but the there  are even more things that go into affecting somebody's opinion about a product a brand or a dental practice in this case and  a huge  part of it is perception it's a subjective it's so that's why it's so important to know as much about your patients as you possibly can you really understand that

Howard:  I want to start with a selfish question it's all about solving me my problems when I'm with three or four dentist you know they the first argument where they're fighting is one wants to just advertise on price come in for $49 you get a cleanings and x-rays and then the  other school doesn't want to do price and that's the first battle that I physically see them arguing over where would you weigh in if you were an alcoholic at that bar watching a football game killing a pitcher beer

John Pohl:  I think that you've really hit on probably the single biggest issue involved in marketing it's a critical  factor and it applies to every business on the planet every single business has to deal with that I am always trying to convince my clients in in truth most of them are marketing products to dentists dental practice is a hygienist but so that our audience might not appreciate my saying this but I always encourage them to have price feed the last thing that they ever talked about and if you really shouldn't even talk about price you should talk in terms of a value because you know there's a simple equation quality equals excuse me value equals quality / price so something can be inexpensive and you know this from you know anything you might buy whether it be you know a pair of shoes or  food or sometimes even a bottle of wine if you go with the lowest price option it's not usually a good value because if I mean it's not a good value if you don't like right here's the other thing to understand from a business standpoint any business that you get because of your price you're going to lose because of price in other words if you are just trying to attract people that are interested in getting the lowest possible price they may come and become your customer your patient for a while but guess what the next time they hear somebody who's got an even lower price they're gonna bolt and you're gonna lose that person so don't ever try to get a customer or a patient because of price because you'll lose that customer or patient for the same reason and the thing is you the  best thing anybody can do I think from a marketing standpoint is to make sure that they are offering great value everybody wants great value I don't necessarily care that it's the lowest price that I when I buy something but I want to get the best value for something and boy if there's any area where value is critical and where you should be looking for value versus price as a as the customer as a patient it is dental  care you know that that cheap extraction or  root canal not that are any cheap root canals but that inexpensive low-cost root canal isn't much of a bargain if you wake up in the middle night you know screaming in pain so I would always argue stress quality on the types of dimensions that your customer your patients are interested in and again that comes back to really understanding that that that patient those patients and whether you're doing written surveys they're online surveys or face-to-face series but you've got to interact and find out you know what's important to them yeah in all walks of business whenever I've done research for a patient for patients for a client and we go talk to the customer you know we ask them all sorts of questions and usually we do it on a blind basis so they don't know it's from my client but you ask questions that get at the issue of what do you really care about when you use this type of a product what's most important to you how do you how did you decide to go with the product the brand that you're using my clients are almost always shocked at the results and you find that the way you're perceived by your customers is very often very different than you thought you may be used you know you might have thought people were buying you and loyal to you for one reason and it turns out that no they don't even care about that or they don't think you're any better at that than anybody else but what they really think you're good at is this and this is why they keep coming back to you time and time again you know so I get if you understand what's important to the patient and then you make sure that you're able to deliver that benefit to them better than anybody else and you make them aware that you're doing that you're gonna have a nice business and price will probably never enter ending 

Howard: so Groupon is the classic example of a race to the bottom 

John Pohl: absolutely  my brother was an entrepreneur and he used a Groupon in the early years and he was a very  savvy business businessman and he learned very early on that it was a big mistake because he never got those customers back and the only they already bought from him if he gave them a crazy deal on Groupon an isle of Groupon as they could but I wouldn't want to be a a client of Groupon because again first of all you don't make any money on what you sell or you make it very little and you're probably not gonna get a repeat purchase and again it's all about repeat business you want to make sure once you've got a patient or any customer you want to hang out of it and in a lot of times businesses are so busy looking at who's the next customer we can reel in they forget about taking care of their existing customers 

Howard: so you say Groupon is a race to the bottom for the dentist and what would it be for the patient 

John Pohl: well it can be a good deal for the patient yeah because there at least for that one that one visit they're gonna get a good price but again if somebody is going to Groupon to decide how they're they're gonna have their  teeth taken care of you know they're probably only gonna stay with that practice as long as they keep getting that price or until somebody else comes along with even better price so and again and I should make it clear I've never done any work with Groupon as a business person I'm voting about a customer of Groupon none of my clients uses Groupon so I don't have practical group line experience to talk about but I can tell you just in general in every in every way I've been involved with or observed anybody who  is taking a price orientation it always goes back to haunt and there's never a long term it's never a long term solution 

Howard: okay so I I've had all three founders and CEO dentist of the only publicly traded dental offices in the world two of them are out of Australia and one of them is out of a out of Singapore and they all told me the same thing they told me that it is marketed that their business models were aimed on the young and that they were very different than the old meaning that when you listen to old people talk they've had so much extensive dental work as opposed to the young who grew up with fluoridated water and fluoridated toothpaste so the yeah so the old knew that there had a root canal done by a general dentists and she had one done by  honest and hers worked and his didn't and they're all into who which hospital did you go to out in Arizona that you know they say well did you go to the Mayo Clinic did you go to the Arizona Heart Institute please tell me you didn't go to that one in the small time you know the small one that doesn't even and  a lot of the older people say things like you know if that hospital doesn't have a helicopter pad you know they're not the most elite 24/7 where's the young they didn't have anything and so these three publicly-traded said the young that the old is loyal to the doctor and knows there's a difference and the young is loyal to themselves they just want convenience so they're all open 7 to 7 days a week and they get kids right out of dental school to do five years they have about a 20% turnover they don't have any hygienists because they know the longer that the dentist's is in there with the patient the more treatment plan will be accepted do you do you when you're thinking about marketing do you separate old boomers like us versus the young Millennials 

John Pohl:  sure there's a there's a huge difference in in those demographics in probably all the products the services that they consume so yeah you really do have to take a much more variable approach I think with marketing than ever before and I mean it's always but even you know thirty years ago obviously older people thought of certain things differently than younger people did but what you didn't have back then that you have now is the tremendous variety of media that you could reach customers with patients with you know back when I was working for Kellogg's the only advertising we did was television advertise we did TV advertising we didn't advertise in magazines we just sanitized in television and you know and most of our products had pretty broad appeal to from you know kids to  grandparents frosted flakes 1/2 of our sales were two kids and half of our sales or two adults but today it's a lot it's a lot more complex in many ways it's easier with social media whether it be Facebook or Instagram LinkedIn you know what have you there is an opportunity to be able to target those people that you're they're trying to bring into your into your practice and you can run a very different ad targeting a millennial than you would if you're targeting a baby boom and you might be using Facebook to attract both of them it's a lot of you know a lot of baby boomers and older are on Facebook but but the type of ad that's going to attract them on Facebook is different from the tech band it's gonna attract a 25 year 

Howard: did you see Elon Musk tweeted yesterday to delete your Facebook account I didn't see that would I look at marketing the first bias I see is since the young are on social media all day long they want to do all this social media and the first thing I'm thinking is okay you're gonna advertise all the people on fluoridated water and fluoridated toothpaste and don't need anything then when I talk to you you're trying to get your diplomat in the International Academy of oral implantology and then I see people that are crushing it with direct mail pieces so what would advice would you give these I mean if the young think okay like when a young has a medical emergency say her gall bladder or kidney or something goes wrong and she goes a hospital all of her friends are just concerned that you got to the hospital they assume if you got to the hospital and your appendix ruptured well that's what hospitals do where's the older or thinking that maybe there's one doctor that can fix a ruptured appendix better than other one so it seems to me that Millennials kind of think dentistry  dentistry and everybody sells a commodity it's a me-too product when you get gasoline you don't care if it's from the Alaskan pipeline or Saudi Arabia and the old people are more value added so how would you how would you advise everyone listening to you now that's a dentist to focus their marketing 

John Pohl: well if we're talking about the under patients initially you know I would say first of all who everything you can to understand what the younger patient wants in an inexperienced key maybe they do think before they go to the visited dentist that all dentists are the same and it's kind of a commodity experience but you know we all know you know better than I that it's not that there's a tremendous variation in the experience from  practice to practice and if I'm a dentist trying to build a practice among Millennials I'm gonna want to do everything I can to understand what is it that they're looking forward to make that experience something that they're not only going to enjoy but they're going to tell everybody about because that's what's one of the advantages of marketing to Millennials if you've got them if you wow them and if you make them loyal to you they're gonna tell everybody you know and back you know thirty years ago that didn't happen somebody might mention it you know if you had a good experience somebody you might mention it you know at a party or whatever but today with social media if somebody has something good happen to them or bad happen to them they can't wait to tell the world a lot so you're gonna get tremendous free advertising if you Wow and millennial because they're gonna go on and especially if you do something that's really you know really special really out of the ordinary they're gonna tell people about it and I mean not like they might rave about a restaurant that they or a bar that they just went to but I mean if you can really wow them and I and I love you should turn Wow because that's what everybody should try to do with their businesses they're gonna tell people and that's that's contagious and there's nothing you know I love creating advertising and in marketing projects but most of those things are an advertiser talking to a customer and the best thing the most convincing thing you can do from a marketing standpoint is to have a fellow customer tell a prospective customer how great you are so if you can get you can you can knock the socks off a millennial patient chances are they're gonna tell people about it and that's gonna be the best advertise you could possibly have

Howard:  so another another um another problem with marketing which which is why I feel sorry for you in dentistry because the  dentist don't know their numbers so you could do an A+ marketing job serve up a hundred leads of their website and they don't they don't even know that they've had an increase in activity on their website they don't even know that it takes a hundred people land on their website before three call the office they don't know three people called the office and you're untrained receptionist only converted one to come in so since I know my homies and since they  couldn't show me their website traffic conversions to their phone and their phone conversion traffic to their open dental software if you put a gun to their head so how in that kind of high-risk for you shouldn't you go into back to the fortune 500 to where they have metrics to say hey John your you did a good job 

John Pohl: well I think that there's room for  both I and I don't you know most of the marketing that I do was the consulting I do is for practices I'm excuse me for manufacturers that are harkening to practices so I'm  working with manufacturers primarily but I still think that there is tremendous opportunity for anybody in the marketing business to help not only at the fortune 500 companies that maybe is everybody's dream just because of the mass involved but it I think there's tremendous opportunity to help the individual the mom-and-pop if you will be the  single dentist practice because with the advances in technology on an individual practice basis just like I'm a for an individual corner store or a bar or a restaurant you can have access to all sorts of great marketing related technology so that even though you're just marketing for your practice you can do as bang-up a job as somebody is doing on a national basis with you know billions of dollars in resources now you probably can't do it on your own if you're a dentist and you're not that tech savvy but you shouldn't be you could hire people you can hire agencies there are freelancers out there find the right one and they'll come in and they'll do it for you in a fraction of the time that you do it on your own whether it be optimizing your website getting the data from your website so that you  have those insights that you're talking about that right now maybe the typical practice doesn't have access to it's not that expensive to bring in outside expertise and they can do these things for you and suddenly you're gonna find that you've got a wealth of useful information that is coming in to you as well as leads that you can follow up on and turn into you know future patients

Howard:  I want to flip this whole conversation I'm sorry I you know I've noticed in 57 laps around the Sun that um people it's a lot easier to judge everyone else than look in the mirror and judge you right and they're always so like I remember when I took out my when I got out of school in 87 I did two new things that were very taboo I did not go into a medical dental building where no one knew I exist I went right in a retail deal which in 87 32 years ago was the new thing and I took a full-page ad in the Yellow Pages ad and got a free lunch from the director of the Arizona Dental Association telling me how horrible this was and killing her image and all this stuff but I would say to those older Dentist I'd say so so you're telling me cuz you know his wife would be sitting with him I said so you're telling me your wife never uses the Yellow Pages and then the website no no I I use it every day and then if you're at their house I would go in the kitchen and get the phone book and you know who's been who's been abusing this Yellow Pages I mean you're telling me that this is the an evil monster I think you might be married to an evil monster wife he's using this evil so I want to flip it around on the dentist how many products do you think they use that are truly and meaningfully better than other options versus how many do they buy like a Groupon customer you know they're like oh this guy just came out on Groupon because they went to Louis Deal well okay doc do you do that do you go by the lowest ill flip it on the dentist with the manufacturer 

John Pohl: you know I think at first of all I would say that the majority of the products that the dentist uses are ones that are not perceived by that dentist Ennis to certainly be all that different from his or her options but yes that's the case and I suspect it is in many instances I would say that's on the manufacturer rather than on the dentist's because for two reasons one is I think again I'm not picking on the dental industry I love the dental industry I love dental manufacturers they're some of the most impressive people I've met in the business world but in any industry I defy you to find many products that really stand out that anybody could point to as a boy that is totally different than everybody else they take a totally different approach with this product this has features that nobody else has most products are me to products to a large extent I think it's the companies that they say oh we need to get into this market so they study what's out there right now and they kind of come up with something similar and I said okay now we have one of those and that's not doing anybody any good nobody he needs more of me two products what you need our better products truly innovative products that do things that existing products don't do so now there are a lot of highly innovative products in the dental industry I've fortunate to work with a lot of clients that have amazing products and it's fun work with them because my job is to try to tell the story so that the dentists or the hygienist will appreciate that oh my god this isn't just another scalar or this isn't just another endodontics into Datuk cement this is something that does things that other documents don't do and so I think that most companies because I feel in all industries the quality of marketing isn't as good as it should be I think most companies either don't have truly innovative products that do bring something special to the party or if they do they're not doing a great job of telling the world about it so I think in many categories dentists probably are gonna either buy what's most convenient or maybe what's least expensive just because they haven't had anybody clearly explained to them I they should prefer this one and why maybe this one worth of premium because it does things for them and for their patients that other products can do 

Howard: you know I used to love having dinner with John miles he was a director of DENTSPLY sorana back in the day he had a MBA and I'll never forget him at dinner him telling me that he loved the dental industry because he said they were so brand loyal and  he was talking to me and it's like what impressment  to use and i said well you know i i've been on em program since day one and i have so many problems and an impression ain't one of them and Here I am you know 32 years later still by an emperor government back then it was German it was SP and then 3m bought it and now it's 3m s I mean it's like my god if that works why am I going to trade you do you think so for me personally I I don't buy anything on price if it's if it's not broken I mean I don't want to say I don't want to save money on a new vinyl Polly siloxane and they get a bunch of remakes so do you think dentists are brand loyal or do you think they're more Groupon on price 

John Pohl: well I think it's probably combination but I can certainly say that I know for a fact that a lot of them are very brand loyal to certain brands one of the things that I probably am most responsible for and I work with a with a client is to help them make their dentists in their hygienists loyal to them and but again they have to do that they have to first of all really have a better product and then they have to do a good job of making the dentists understand why it's better and I could take a that for example with you three I loved working there and I loved working with their products because they were in most cases the most expensive product out there and they were the best selling product in most of their categories too and that's very rare that's like you know saying having mercedes-benz have a Chevrolet market sure whether it's very unusual any in any market to have the most expensive product me the best selling product but you free makes a really really good product they are obsessed with quality and they over the years dentist came to appreciate that and hygienist came to appreciate that and they would be loyal as could be to those products and I love loyalty I'd like to be loyal as a consumer to different products and I'm loathe to try something else if I'm really happy with what I have I want to be loyal but again the if you're trying to break through that then you have to do your research and understand talk to the dentist about whatever the category is and you know peel back the onion and see the are they are they a hundred person happy with every single aspect of that product or how could it be better what would you do to make it even better and sometimes you'll find that you know the dentists or whoever the customer might be doesn't really have an idea gee I can't think of anything but sometimes you know if you dig deep enough dentists will tell you they well you know if they could do this as well or if it didn't take us long to do that you'll get some insights and you can come up with ideas so that you about with the product that really does make it worthwhile for that loyal dentist to Switchfoot you know again we are talking about cereal here we're talking about products that have a profound impact on the health of patients so I get that a day dentist isn't going to it shouldn't just change willy-nilly they've got to be sold they've got to be really really convinced that it's  a better product it's  worth the risk of shifting from what they've used for the last you know twenty five years and  I respect that and that's so that's the challenge for manufacturers to convince the dentist that it's worth making a change they will be better off and their patients will be better off

Howard:  so where do where do the where do you advise to draw the line between all the new digital social media marketing and I don't want to address phone book that might be tool but um Direct Mail print magazine things like that 

John Pohl: well you know the good news is that you can get objective feedback as a dental just that tells you if it's working or not you know back at me there used to be there's a famous line I don't think it was David Ogilvy but somebody years ago decades ago said I know that my half of my advertising is effective right no you couldn't it was when I started my career it was really hard to prove that an ad campaign was working but now you know I'm you can especially with you the digital advertising you know if you're getting clicks you know if you're getting you know conversions you know exactly what you're paying for every person to go from Facebook to check out your website or to respond to your email and  you can track the effectiveness of every dollar you spend pretty accurately so one of the things I always advises experiment try different things but track it and measure it you know if you do a direct mail piece make sure that you're able to track the results so that if let's say if there's a you encourage people in that in that postcard to call your practice make sure that when somebody does call your practice you know that they called as a result of that that direct mailing whether it's you have a special code that you have and give over the phone or your receptionist is just trained to say may ask oh you heard about us and keep track of okay you know we had six people's call our practice after that direct mailing and it cost us six hundred dollars for that so we spend a hundred dollars per patient was that a good investment well it probably was so that would tell me okay do a lot more direct mailing events it in in the in the future but again with in and if you can't measure it you know it's probably not worth doing I think a lot of just newspaper advertising magazine advertising can be a waste of money unless it's really really high quality advertising and even then make sure you're tracking it that you and again the best way is when somebody calls that that your receptionist for the first time have her ask may ask how you found out about us so if it is because they saw an ad that you ran in in a you know the local magazine or was a direct mail piece or maybe it was some maybe they saw your website but they didn't click on there you ever tracked that so that you know you know what bang you're getting for the bucks you're spending in all these different areas but I hear the old media can still work direct mail pieces can still work and just because something is new media doesn't mean it's going to work either so the beauty is you can experiment and with your when you're doing your Facebook Ads or Instagram ads whatever you might be doing you as anybody knows Savvy a lot of our audience is pretty savvy I think when it comes to this stuff you do all sorts of different tests of all sorts of different and so you'll find that some ads might be totally ineffective but others are extremely effective so if you're gonna do Facebook and it just several ads if you're gonna do direct mail ideally do a couple of different versions of it too so that you'll see that because believe me not all of your guising is created equal that the range between effective advertising and in effect of advertising is tremendous and most of it is not all that effective so it takes experimentation to get a trace one of the problems I see is

Howard: you know I look at cottage industries like dentistry where not one person as 1% of market there's two hundred eleven thousand licensed Americans to practice dentistry no one has 2,100 dentists work form and there's 150,000 general dentistry locations and Heartland and Aspen and Pacific they're just coming up on 1,000 they would need 1500 be a percent so we're like cattle and wheat no one has one percent of the cattle market but I but I look at the fortune 500 as the leaders and I've always stoled from their ideas dentists are trying to advertise to get a new patient but I look at all the fortune 500 it's like they assume everybody's flown Southwest Airlines ones are gonna chase this but they spend more money on retaining a customer and you know I look at Dennis you know they're always talking about advertising and they don't see it because if you if you get out of dental school and you go back to practice with your mom in Parsons Kansas and she's had the same hygienist Bessy in room one with a bell around her neck and three operatories it's like they've been throwing 20 new patients in her schedule every month for 40 years well I mean it's kind of like I always have a in my seminars I stood I used to take a cup of coffee and I'd say here's marketing and I just keep pouring the whole pot into that cop and I just and I said all that coffee going on the table is losing a patient so it seems like Southwest and chase that they want loyalty programs they want customer loyalty programs is that - over the head for a cottage industry I mean if someone told me they had two dollars to spend on marketing would I say spend a dollar on attracting a new patient and then another dollar on finding out solving why your patients left you what  could you spend to keep existing patients for life how do you balance between where how would you spend that two dollars 

John Pohl: I'd probably spend it this way probably a dollar fifty on attracting a new patient and 50 cents on retaining the current patient but I want to explain that because I think retaining the current patient is more important than attracting the new patient however the beauty of it is that you don't have to spend nearly as much to keep a patient happy as you do to attract a new patient because it can be expensive to attract the new a new customer in any business you know you're  casting out to the sees there and there are a lot of a lot of other lines in the water and you know it's not easy not cheap necessarily to reel in a new patient a new a new customer so I think you do have to have new patient recruitment efforts underway but I think too many companies including dental practices focus only on that and they're always thinking about the next new customer and they forget to take care of sometimes their existing customers and they they'll loot when they you lose one that's that it takes a long time to make that up make up a lost customer but one of the things I would did I would I would stress is here's the way to think about your current customers think about what would it take for them to go rave to everybody they know about us about our practice there's a great line I read into a book several years ago and it said advertising is the price you pay for nobody talking about your business in other words you know when you think what advertising is people talking about themselves you're talking about your business your dental practice whatever it might be but what's better than that is having your customers out talking about you your Starbucks for years  and years they didn't advertise they didn't know advertising and they you know grew like that they grew because people would happen upon it and they go back and they become loyal to it and then they'd bring friends to it or they'd tell friends about it and it just took off people were talking about Starbucks and then the rest was history so I'm not saying don't advertise but I'm saying before you even think about advertising think about the product the service the experience you're providing your patients from the moment they pull into the parking lot to the moment they pull out on the parking lot to the moment that they either get an email from you or a phone call from you regarding our next appointment or whatever might be think about how you can wow them every step of the way and make in a situation where they wouldn't even in a million years think of ever looking for another dense like why would I even consider that because if they're feeling that way not only are they going to not consider that new dentist even though we might have a Groupon ad you know they'll tell other people about the volunteer tour certainly if somebody says hey I need a dentists who can you recommend you know they're gonna send them in your direction but if you're really you know knocking their socks off they'll go out of the way to tell the world about it because people love sharing stories of great experiences and 

Howard:  again it's you know arguably it's a bigger challenge and we all know I don't have to tell who need is just out there that you know generally people aren't thrilled about it when it's time for that next dental appointment but if you if you don't want to be a me-too product you don't want to be a commodity you want to be unique let's start with the backend or the patient what why do you think they're leaving their dentists and what are they looking for I mean is it pain-free you hear a bunch of talk about and in fact limit let me ask you first whoo-hoo which dental manufacturers are you working for now you mentioned you freedy what what is that your main client or are you working for other go no you free

John Pohl:  I will do projects for every now and then but basically they are a really big company with a really big in-house marketing department so they don't have to go outside to do people like me working with I'm working with a wide variety of really interesting companies news file the pediatric company the Diane Johnson great company about a year facts about two years ago they purchased a really interesting company called Avalon biomed which makes endodontic cements amazing product company Avalon biomed they've been around for quite a few years but news file purchased them about two years ago and and there you do just wonderful wonderful things well water

Howard:  kids kids kids what did he just say he just said mergers and acquisitions every time I meet a dentist it's doing three or four million dollars every time an old man retires up the street five miles away he buys a practice and rolling in here's Diane Johnson of new smile and and what he said is she did a mergers and acquisitions so why did you let that 70 year old dentist who could barely put skin on the handpiece why did you let him sell to some 25 year old kid but continued well

John Pohl:  I also worked with culture I work with dmg I work with a really interesting amazing but very small special especially burger company out of Canada called tri hawk I work with I do work occasionally with air techniques with actually a really interesting company that's out of Canada other company out of Canada called surgically clean air that make air filtration systems that are just amazing they will not only greatly reduce the risk of anybody getting sick because of all you know again your you know better than I all the stuff that's floating through the air in an operatory and that's actually not just inaccurate but throughout the whole practice but this these products will not only take care of the germs but it'll reduce the smell actually I eliminate the smell that that dental practice smell that you know most patients are very familiar with so I you know others as well but I've got a real range but the common denominator is that every one of them has products that are unique that stand out that bring something different to the party so I have a lot of fun working with those products and those companies because there really is a great story to tell I'm really able to  explain hopefully creatively why this product is better than whatever you're using now and it makes it I mean I wouldn't do what I do if I was just trying to you know pull the wool over people's eyes and trick them into buying a product that really is no different than anything else I'm really fortunate that I've been able to work with those types of companies that have better mousetraps and my job is just to help them explain they make the world realize just why it's the better mousetrap 

Howard: okay so that's your dental manufacturers for full disclosure now you see a lot of I don't recall I would call it noise if I had data to say it's no good and I would call it a but  you hear one of my pet peeves is same day dentists every time a same day dentistry and here you know I worked three days last week and for 32 years when I tell someone they need a root canal they never they or not know that's in pain but a crown they always ask well how much is it well my insurance pay they don't say well can I have it the same day so I just and then I look at numbers when when Renken invented x-rays it didn't interest any dentist but when Delta dentals started insurance company was the Longshoremen's Club in 1948 and when they robbed which is now the Delta Dental of Washington in California who are by the way the two largest investors of start at Capital in dentistry I mean every time I meet some kid who's saying yeah I've got a new idea and it's a it's an app it's tella dentistry it's a platform I said where did you get your venture capital money it's always Delta Dental of California Delta Dental of Washington and  it's all history that's where it all started in 1948 and those um but anyway I'm you when they covered x-rays at a hundred percent oh my god the x-ray machine was a domino effect and it went coast to coast went all the way from the Pacific to the Atlantic in an hour but when same day Dentistry came out which was when I was still in school it was a French project that had just moved to LA I mean now we don't even have 15 percent have same-day dentistry so so when you said so to target on what people want could you give us the bullet list of what patients are looking for 

John Pohl: I couldn't tell you but what I can't say is this that if I were a by the way I mean I could tell you that what I Renne but there yeah I've Google over the years including you know fairly recently the what do patients want what's most important to dental patients whatever and I would actually encourage dental practices to do this just to see what's out there on the internet because especially focusing on the more recent articles because you could probably get some good insights but there's no substitute for talking to your own patients and what I would do is fact I would do it on a regular basis probably on an annual basis do a survey of your patients do have an online survey so it's easy for them to do I can take them five minutes you can offer a little bit of an incentive if you want just to encourage them to  participate but ass and by the way I would get some help with the survey design to make sure it is well designed so that it's just asking questions the right way and also in an efficient way so that it's not going to take too much of your patient's time but I would ask the questions that are going to give you the insights as to first of all satisfied are they with your practice in all the important areas that you want to ask about but at the really key thing after you've done that is first of all drill down if there if there's anything that they're not thrilled with ask why and make them understand that you want them to be honest with you you're not going to be upset if they if they say something negative that you want the truth you know no matter how painful that might be but then also probe to see you know what else would you like is there are there other services you'd like us to offer are there ways that we could be better in terms of the way our staff works with you the way are we handled the billing the scheduling etc what do you think about the way our what do you think about our office Décor what do you think about our parking lot what do you think about the way our place the office smells yeah the you know just ask every question you could possibly think of and then ask them again here after years so that you can get a trend you say okay hey are we are we are we doing better doing worse so we make a no progress but and ask those questions and then build a I don't want to call it a marketing plan I would just say practice plan around the answers so that you are making the changes not just because you took it a vote among staff and today let's  paint the walls purple but you know you've got some hard data that you know that this is what our patients want and this is what they like this is what they don't like and because every you know every obviously every patient is different but every practice is different too and  you might read some article about what is working nationally what patients are saying  but depending on where you live you know your part of the world may be quite different from you know the  mean the average type of responses you get on a national basis so again there's no substitute for local research and for research within your patient base because that you're gonna get insights you have to write questions every year you'll probably get to you're gonna get four or five or six really interesting insights that make you go WOW no idea shocked and thank God we know that now because now we can do something either to fix the problem or maybe this is something that allows you to leverage an asset that you haven't been taken advantage of like you could 

Howard: you know when you say do research studies online that show what patients want everything you know there was the NCBI the what is it the National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health they the last study they posted showed that the  most important thing was that the hero only read it to make sure I get it right come on but but anyway it was um it was the that the dentists and staff it was them it was the dentist and the staff at caring personally they liked their dentist they thought he had empathy sympathy they liked the staff the the human side always shows up the first great the other side I just had dinner last week with the largest dental malpractice company and I called Nick Mick but it's in cm I see and everybody talks about the same thing when you look at malpractice it's the same doctors getting sued over and over and over and now they've determined that you know the problem with Mr. John's is that he's a jerk the people don't like him he's mean and this is a way of getting back at him and  I see with honesty I mean you know when you break a file it used to be a big problem back in the 80s I  haven't broke a root canal file I mean since uh I can't remember the last time I broke a root canal file they just made him better but when they would break I would feel that shock I used to be sure like oh my god I can't believe it that damn file broke and then the patient would saw your reaction and I said it's kind of like you're driving to work and your engine blows or you get a flat tire I mean it was nothing I did even though I was standing on the high speed pushing down on as hard as I can but um but  then when other people would come in and you and they would find out later that their failed root canal had a broken file in there and the last guy never told him that was what violated that that's why they were so upset not that everyone knows crap breaks especially if you're an American I mean if you're in Germany or Japan where they actually know how to make stop maybe it would be shocking but in America you just assume it's I mean John Glenn when he landed they say well what  were you thinking when you're up there being the first man to orbit the earth and he says why I thought I'm up here in a device that was made by the lowest bidder in America and that's it's America I mean Germans and Japanese truly just want to make it the best as possible and Americans just want to make it they just want to sell it so that makes them a largest profit for the cheapest margin but chairside manner goes a long way

John Pohl:  yeah that's vital in and you can't I as soon as he can teach them maybe you can to some extent but you know if you're somebody that has a naturally charming personality you know what an asset that is and I'm sure that is going to account for you know a big part of your overall practice success not everybody has that kind of a personality but you can still be kind you can still be caring you don't have to be outgoing if you're not naturally outgoing but you know I would have to believe that in any part of the country would it would indicate that that chairside manner that the caring personality of the dentist and the staff is  probably the single most important thing that that along with of course with  competence with the basic you know clinical competence but I that is something that probably most people assume that they're gonna get well 

Howard: you gotta go back to my buddy Diane you mentioned her and you said that she bought Avalon biomed so go through like what  would be a challenge for someone as sophisticated as Diane who does a merger and acquisition from new smile pediatric crowns to Avalon biomed or you  know how does your amazing mind wrap around this to you what key opinion leaders is it the price is that if you're on Shark Tank the smartest man on Shark Tank is obviously the bald guy and what would Mr. wonderful say he'd say who are your competitors

John Pohl:  well Diane is a really smart businessperson and she's very Abele assisted by her brother Mark Benford who actually is the key person at Avalon environment but they I would guess they wouldn't have purchased Avalon biomed had they not had the ability to learn from the founder of Avalon biomed which is Carolyn Primus she's a PhD brilliant researcher developed the products one of the true geniuses in endodontics and so you've got mark and Diane who are they know the dental industry inside-out they're very  smart business people and then they  bring in a live environment and are able to work with them and listen to and learn from Carolyn and they've been able to take what they've learned in other areas of Dentistry not related to endodontics and marry it with what the what the insights they've gotten from Carolyn about the endodontics world and you know they've been able to take the success that Carolyn had had with her products and just grow those and accelerate those in fact they happen to be introducing some really exciting new products this year because they had greater resources than Avalon biomed had on its own they were able to apply those resources and that innovation that they've become known for towards the endodontic business so it's been it's been a from everything I can see it's been a very successful marriage and you know they're doing some great things so you know it's like anything else you don't want to just go to businesses for sale you don't want to buy it but they saw this is a great product a company that has a lot of great products and they've won all sorts of awards they just won the dental advisor award for the sixth year in a row for their key product and it's the least expensive product in the market by the way 

Howard: oh my god use a dental advisor I I want to shout out to John W Farrar Farrar he's a founder of dental advisor I'm Farr and your fa ra h come on I've been trying to get that guy on the show and the problem the problem I think why they don't come on the show is because they're just introverts and they're shy and I mean you ask everyone what's the biggest fear they say public speaking and I'm like really I've never been in a funeral where someone said well at least he's not given a speech I'm glad he's in a pine box but John  come on dude come on the show so this Carolyn premise has a PhD in material science and engineering has developed over 100 medical device she sounds like a legend she's 11 patents in dentistry can you deliver her to the show I I'll give it a shot and 

John Pohl: she's delightful person you'd love having her as a guest in your audience

Howard:  would love listening to her well then let's uh let's get her on this show and Mark you said Mark Binford was a Diane Krueger's brother yeah so um continue so um so we talked about that so Kohl's er dmg those are German companies and then you talk about Sun star being Japanese I've always noticed I assumed try hawk air techniques and surgically clean air those are try harken air techniques Americans surgically clean air Canadian attracts is traffic is James well so try Hawk and surgically clean air so you deal with two Canadians try Hawk and surgically clean air American air techniques but coals are dmg or Germans and I can remember in the back in the day I mean whenever I'd lecture in Germany  are Europe I would Swiss see Germany I am I would go always try to go by and visit the companies I really thought that was cool and the most amazing way to learn and I'd always noticed that in Germany they'd have like you know 5 to 60 guys that were PhDs and lab white coats and no marketing or advertising department no call center then I go to American companies the same size you know about a hundred million that size and they would have no PhDs but they have a 30 person call center and then you would go to China and they were obsessed with just making it so cheap people would just buy it and if it didn't work they'd throw it away so it was like Germans wanted to make it so well it sell itself word about the referral the Americans just focused on the sales process telemarketing all that stuff and the and the Chinese I mean I remember buying my kids at gocart when they were little was made in China and the first time on the parking lot the whole frame sunken and bent I mean it was just junk and I always said China needs to make more quality Europeans need to learn to get to marketing and advertising and Americans should for the first time in their life consider that the size of your economy it's what purse our percent of that 17 trillion dollar GDP it's just crap and you know just try to make something that lasts more than five years but uncles are in dmg what do you think are the challenges of them marketing to the dentist that you're talking to right now 

John Pohl: I think it's probably just the fact that there are so many players so many competitors in those areas in materials it seems to be there probably more materials manufacturers than then manufacturers of any other care category in dentistry but I will say that they in this it sound like a commercial but they both have great stories to tell and every product that I've ever worked on on with them you know they  take the their reputations for innovation very very seriously and they would never come out with a product that doesn't have something unique about it that nobody else offers so it's just a challenge of getting the word out you know there's a lot of there are a lot of companies out there vendors are very very busy people they have tough jobs and it's time to get anybody to give anyone difficult eat anybody to  sit down and really listen to this story because they've got so many other things in their mind and  you know no Dentist woke up this morning saying you know I need a new I really need to find a new bulk composite you know it's you've got to get their attention make them realize that you're probably happy with what you have right now but give me 60 seconds this will make you even happier and it's gonna be either it's gonna make you more money it's gonna allow you to to generate better outcomes it's gonna save you time it whatever the story might be and  you know companies like dmg and  culture and the other one but as I mentioned I think there's somewhat unique in that I've never seen any of those companies he introduced a product that was just a me-too product they bulb always got an angle and it's not just a  in substantive angle it's something that really does make a difference and the challenge is just to get busy dentists to be able to give you the time to listen to the story and to consider making a move to that product

Howard: so I'm I've been trying to get a Mark Baron is on the show he's CEO of culture and but you know he lives in Germany and their American deals in South Bend Indiana but again it's a side deal but tell them tell them to come on the show and talk it's so anti German it's just not their personality you know I mean and they're more analytical matter of fact scientific I mean even my German dentists in Germany are first to tell you yeah we don't have a sense of humor and say that but do you think and get mark to come on the show talk all right

John Pohl:  I'll try I think he'd be a great guest as well and you've had you've had George from dmg on right and he's been he's a great he was a great guest for him 

Howard: yeah I just love it like in Japan like I was talking to a I was lecturing last weekend and uh some dealer in California and I told him to come on the show and he laughed I mean he laughed a lot he's like never I mean you know it was just the thought of it would just drive him crazy so they're a Japanese company but there are American divisions right near backyard in Chicago right right 

John Pohl: yeah I work with them on the sometimes on their consumer products sometimes on their professional products but really interesting company with some some great products and 

Howard: what and would would be what would be Sun stars challenges having a Japanese culture and product etc and making it in the American market well I mean 

John Pohl: they've  made some great headway certainly over the years they they've been very successful in both the dental both the consumer arena and the professional arena you know I think really for every company in dentistry it's  just a challenge to stand out from the crowd because there are I think you know it goes back to this Howard I think that if you look at the dentist it's one of the most amazing professions there is to me because you were so many hats as a dentist right you're a doctor you're a artist you're an engineer you're a businessperson you're a boss you're a personnel manager you have to do so many things and only probably one of them are is something that you were trained for a dental school which is the clinical aspect of it right so I think I've always said that you know when I entered the industry several years ago that if I had known how cool dentistry was I would have considered it pursuing it when I was you know in school and I've told many many of my friends kids said it boy if you don't know what you're gonna do when you grow up consider dentistry because I think it's just an amazing profession but if you're marketing to death as the challenges they are wearing somebody hats you know it's a very hectic job and so it's a real challenge I think any dental manufacturer will tell you it's a challenge to really get noticed and to get the attention that you would like to be able to tell your story and again that's not taking a shot at dentists there it's not that they're lazy it's just that they are so busy and they've got so many balls in the air that is just a real challenge for them to make the time to consider new products particularly if they aren't significantly dissatisfied with whatever they're using now so you know I think whether you're a big company or a small company in the dental industry you know it's a challenge to get dentists to be able to give you the time to consider the stories that you want to tell and that's  why people like I exist our job is to try to make sure that that we do get the stories out there and get them noticed and that's where the creativity comes and that's why we're on sazzle wanted to bring somebody in from outside of the dental industry from the consumer industry so we could take creative approaches that would get noticed maybe more so than and ads are you look at the typical dental journal and you look at the ads most of them are very crowded very cluttered because you know the advertisers want to tell everything they could possibly think of to tell about how wonderful their products are but those ads don't get read they don't get noticed because nobody's got the time to read through all that detail so you know you've got to be creative you got to have an idea that is engaging that makes people a notice and B go wow that's something I need to look into they're not gonna make the decision to buy based on seeing your ad but maybe they'll say you know next time I'm at a dental show I gotta stop by their booth and find out more about their product or when I get some time I'm going to go to their website and check that out or or maybe do a C E course to see they learn more about that product but you've got to be out there and make it easy and convenient for the dentist because you know they've got so much so much on their plate you're not gonna be able to get their attention if you aren't provocative and if you don't make it as easy and convenient as possible 

Howard: well please send any of those guys on the show and I'll tell you and I'll tell you why I'm saying that to you in kids I mean I've told you this on the show many times but when I was little my dad whenever we went on vacations he had one do two things I want to go to every six flags like I still think Magic mountain's Six Flags is better than Disneyland in fact I even put it at first what's the one what's that one Kyle out there it's the theme park out there in LA it's not Magic Mountain it's not design it's the it's that's very firm how did you know that forgot about that Knott's Berry Farm is number one Magic Mountain but I went to all those I mean my dad just loved that stuff he screamed like a little kid on every roller coaster he loved it but he also had this very inquiring mind and would stop it he would always find out anybody who give tours so I don't care what they made and I learned so much and  then when you get older you learn about learning it's about show touch feel well I I've continued that my four boys my boys have been and literally a hundred dental manufacturing companies in at least 50 countries and they're always talking about it I mean I remember in fact sometimes it's sad because I'll be telling you something it was just this last year Eric Lee showed me some you know a kid Austin you say and I said did you know he passed away and I was like he was like seriously depressed and but when you go in there like say you were going to dmg and you saw Wolfgang who's a doctor in chemistry and he's telling you passionately why he makes his product like this you just don't ever forget it and then when you go to school people would always say yeah I read it three times like well you didn't celebrate your birthday three times last year but you remember a year ago what it does you didn't you didn't get your Eagle Scout three times so you remember that night why do you have to read it three times if it really meant anything to you  just do it once I never ever wanted to study I wouldn't read the same chapter twice hell you read it the first time you either cared then or you didn't care and but when you see them show touch feel passionately tell you I remember going to den mat Bob Ibsen who passed away a couple years ago and you know he would when he would tell you why he how he made core paste or Jerri story I mean you thought he was talking about his grandkid and you just never forgot it so um I would tell you kids not to mention if you're there for hours in one minute it's that now a tax deduction not now you're not going to Italy to see Rome you're going Italy to see 20 dental manufacturers and they love it and the your kids learn about manufacturing and other things and I just love that stuff so I love to get CEOs on to the company and tell us why they are so passionate so any of those CEOs you're working with tell them to come on the show and I know they're afraid of public speaking and all that kind of stuff but I'm last but not least I cannot let you go final question is how the hell did John Paul get interested in elevate performance powertrain treatment using revolutionary nanotechnology to dramatically reduce engine friction did you did you take that that uh oil cover who was the oil commercial to buy the old golfer are you pulling an ardor bomber ami actually that's my application

John Pohl:  I actually a gentleman that I had done some work for as a consultant in another business approached me to say that he had come across this product it's an engine treatment and he said it it's the most amazing into treatment in the world and nobody knows about it and he says I'm gonna put together a company and I'm gonna get the rights to this and he asked me if I would like to come along and be part of his team so I spend you know 40 hours a week working on with my demo clients and in 25 hours a week working on elevate but it's a it's a company we started and I'm literally doing it in my spare time but it's a product that not only increases horsepower it'll crease your mileage and normally if you want to if you got a vehicle you if you increase the horsepower whatever happens the first thing happens is when your mileage goes down right the more powerful the vehicle the less miles you're gonna get this because it makes engine so incredibly efficient it increases horsepower and increases your mileage and because it increases your mileage it reduces your emissions too so we've got yeah we've got a fun story to tell there it's a great product and we're having some fun with 

Howard: well congratulations on that there anything that you wish we would have talked about that I didn't cover you know you are you you did so well and in fact you told me that you hoped you wanted to convey some of the key steps that will help an excellent dentist become an excellent marketer as well what is this action step after this show 

John Pohl: well I I think it's it would be to ask yourself as a dentist how would I want patients my patients to answer this question the quinces question is what is the most special thing about my dental practice what makes theI go to special and as a dentist I would ask yourself well how would I like my patients to respond to this what do I want them to think about this practice because I don't think any dentist wants to be thought of as just another dentist just another dental practice so but how specifically do you want to be thought of then is it that it's we offer the best care we offer the most caring environment the warmest environment this is a it's a fun place to go to it's a it's  a most convenient practice in terms of visiting in terms of scheduling etc whatever might be but ask yourself what do I want to be known for and then I would say go ask your patients how they how they think of you do they think of you that way the chances are they don't or at least they don't quite think of you in exactly the same way you think but decide how you want to be thought of see if you are being thought of that way and if you're not and figure out maybe with outside help maybe on your own what do we have to do to realign things so that we are being perceived by our patients the way we want to be perceived and ideally the way you want to be perceived is based on what your patients are telling you is most important to them so I can't if I said it a couple of times already but I really it would encourage all of your listeners to to talk to their patients and to really understand what are they liking what are they not liking what are they missing and do that every year because like any business you've got to keep getting better year after year you can't stand still you can either move forward or you can fall behind standing still is an option so know your patients and figure out how you can best thrill them you're gonna I think enjoy the process of learning and you're gonna really enjoy the process of throwing your patients because it's it's you know it's what you get up for in the morning and I think that it'll not only make going to work even more enjoyable and interesting than it is now but you're gonna be even more successful as a practice than you are now

Howard:  and your website is 14th for solutions are you on the 14th floor right now

John Pohl:  I am NOT although I worked out of a home office and my official address is 243 Niles Avenue Suite 1400 I'm normally in the second floor 

Howard: well John thank you so much for coming on the show to take a leap marketing for big dental manufacturers and trying to bring it on down home to my homies for their little bitty individual offices because I have a passion for trying to preserve private owner-operated dentistry and it's funny I had a funny so does Delta Dental and when I am was meeting with Delta Dental I was SM well why are you so why are you so interested in serving and keeping fee-for-service dentistry and they think do you think we want to negotiate with someone who's got a thousand dental offices or one guy and so it's not entirely altruistic but yeah we want the owner/operator and I would the owner operated just because it's how humans work I mean like say if I bought my boys a bicycle they'd always have to argue with them you left it outside but if I made them think they bought half of it like they might only have three dollars and the bike was a hundred but I'd say okay you got a pie have you got to give me your three dollars well then they would sleep with the bicycle in their bedroom I mean you know they  paid three dollars of that 100 and I just see owner-operated dentists taking the most seee getting their f AGD there ma Jeannie their diplomats owner-operated dentists just man they are going for and that's who I want to treat my five grandchildren you know when I'm down there rotting in the pine box and I don't want a bunch of minions working for some businessperson from Wall Street saying okay today we got a hundred of fillings coming in that gives us a hundred opportunities to convert these to upgrade to a crowns like shut up well

John Pohl:  as I said I think being an owner/operator dentist is is a fascinating job it's one of the most interesting jobs I'm aware of I envy that is who get to do that to get to wear those hats there can never be a dull moment to never be a dull day so mixing my metaphors my hats off to those  owner/operator dentists my respect is definitely theirs and on top of that as I said earlier there's no doubt in my mind that Baker could be very  effectively with the big guys 

Howard: and  before you go you these kids they don't even know who Peter Drucker is the father of Management Milton Friedman still the greatest economists that ever lived and Here I am still every day thinking the what do we have to reap what do we have to relearn everything Milton taught us and give us you give us your thoughts on Peter Drucker Milton Friedman Stiegler how they had an effect on you are the best takeaway I'm trying to motivate the kid tell him something enough to where he'll want to go Google who Peter Drucker is

John Pohl:  Peter Drucker was an amazing guy he was Austrian by birth he his only jobs he ever had basically were being a professor and being a consultant he consulted with General Motors with Alfred Sloan who basically made General Motors General Motors he consulted with John F Kennedy he consulted with businesses of all size organizations of all sizes countries of all sizes and you know if I had to point to one thing that made him so special it was just that he had this way of seeing things clearly he could look at his situation very logically and find simplicity out of chaos and step back after studying it and boil situations down to their  basic elements and help people identify what's working what's not working and then put together action plans that fix the problems and leverage the assets you know so it's I'll tell you his books and he wrote over 20 books they are as readable today as they were when he first wrote them their profound incredibly eloquent but very provocative too and he just it's  not dry reading it's very interesting readings got great antidotes because he's worked with so many fascinating clients over  the decades his class was a two-hour class once a week he'd come to the class he'd be an evening he'd sit down he talked non-stop for two hours and it was the most amazing two hours of the week he just lectured for two hours non-stop and pulled stories but there it was the common thread with all them was just having a clarity and ability to again aches chaotic situations break him down and turn them into manageable situations that you could you could improve and succeed with Milton Friedman was just a brilliant economist very conservative he's behind the Chicago School of Economics but definitely he was basically the opposite of John Maynard Keynes who was if there's a liberal government in the in the world from a economic standpoint they're probably fancy I'm a nerd games Milton was the opposite tack most compelling debater I've ever seen in my life and get an incredible writer you may disagree with certain things that you've heard about Milton Friedman if you've heard anything I I guarantee if you read his books that I'm guessing you have that you'll be convinced he's just everything he argues is fact-based it's evidence-based which is something that I think most dentists can relate to and a lot of his viewpoints are conservative but it's only because the people who and they are provocative they're shocking but it was only because he looked at facts that other people didn't look at and he learned things that nobody else had learned before anyway 

Howard: don't forget the last one Stiegler Oh George Joseph stickler cuz I'm Milton was not born in Brooklyn but he he also was at the University of Chicago where Albert Einstein was but I got an MBA from ASU I mean I'm and my god university cago has had 28 Nobel prize-winning economist and I mean when you walk down those halls in the university chicago and you oh my god I mean talk about and and I and I just cringe second to says forward one step back how many these lessons are we have to learn again like if you find one thing that you disagree with Milton Friedman don't tell anyone because all the older people are gonna know you're not right in the head and  we're gonna have to learn it again but  say something about Stigler 

John Pohl: well there was a lot of what the work he did was focused on that the concept of competition but he also had an unbelievable sense of humor you would have loved him in person because he was hysterical Milton was about five four and I'm the on the portly side George Stigler was six or use a footballer and I've waited about a hundred and fifty pounds and so they looked as opposite as two people could possibly look but they thought very similarly and to your point about the lessons that these guys have to learn you know in our you know society right now the lot of debates about what's the right way to go with the economy and I'll just say that the approach that Milton Friedman advocated is I think has always been and continues to be the right right direction so I hoped a few more people especially during the next you know eight months or so do some reading of Uncle Miltie because I think the whole country would be better off not saying that capitalism doesn't have room for improvement but  it's the only way to go and my view not that you asked for my opinion on that and in Milton Friedman is I think the strongest proponent of capitalism that I think he's ever been remember kids say sometimes

Howard:  I had this debate in LA last weekend at this seminar and they're arguing with me is if like I was lighted or loved it it's not it's not what I should've cut and no one cares if you like it or not I mean it just is it's like the speed of light it's just 186,000 miles a second if you because it's been there Esther like bitching about it I mean they you know they the cosmos is four and a half degrees Kelvin I don't have the thermostat I didn't set it that way you know if it just is it just is you don't have a dog in a fight of what is start with what is and then work back from there but thank you so much for coming on and by the way I I think you're excelling and marketing because I think you missed your calling incoming  comedy and when he first logged on he told me he was half Irish and half German and that they make a really good drunk get it was really neat drunk they really oh really neat drug all right I knew her all right all right well have a great day thanks  for coming on  

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