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Robert Ibsen, DDS teaches you how to provide new smiles to your patients…without the use of anesthetics.
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AUDIO - HSP #193 - Robert Ibsen
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VIDEO - HSP #193 - Robert Ibsen
Howard and Robert discuss how you can pick the best case for painless porcelain veneers, how to avoid causing pain to patients, and the mystery of occlusion.
For over 30 years, Dr. Robert Ibsen has been creating beautiful porcelain veneer smile transformations without ever removing sensitive tooth structure or requiring any shots or temporaries. He is a graduate of the USC School of Dentistry and the Southern California College of Optometry. Dr. Ibsen co-authored the first textbook on adhesive restorative dentistry.
Howard Farran: It is a huge, huge honor today to be interviewing probably the most famous dentist on Earth, the legend Bob Ibsen. I'm going to tell your story first to my listeners. You're talking to about 7,000 dentists say Bob.
Robert Ibsen: Okay.
Howard Farran: Bob Ibsen was ... Let me see if I got the story right. First you were an optometrist, right?
Robert Ibsen: Optometrist, yes.
Howard Farran: Optometrist. When you studied to be an optometrist, you learned all about color and light, and materials, and how they reflect light and everything. Then it was kind of a perfect storm. Then he goes into dentistry. He's in Southern Cal, and you were at the ground zero of the cosmetic revolution from going from everything being amalgam and gold. Out there in Hollywood, everybody wanting white. You wrote the first book in cosmetic dentistry, and it was actually called Adhesive Dentistry. They didn't have any materials to do what you wanted to do for all these Southern California people that wanted white smiles; so he starts his own company DenMat meaning dental materials. It was all adhesive dentistry. The ground zero, the first products I ever saw that did cosmetic dentistry was you. Then, later Bob doesn't like the way ... Is Bob okay to call you Bob, or do you want me to call you Dr. Ibsen?
Robert Ibsen: Why don't you call me Bob?
Howard Farran: Call you Bob. Then Bob didn't like all the toothbrushes. The toothpastes were affecting the luster on the cosmetic dentistry he's done. Then he starts his own toothpaste, the first premium toothpaste, Rembrandt. Before that, toothpaste was all a commodity that all the tubes were the same price, the same ingredients. You started the first cosmetic toothpaste, Rembrandt. My God, Bob what are you going to do for an encore?
Robert Ibsen: Oh, I'm talking to you.
Howard Farran: You're talking to me. What a let down to the last career.
Robert Ibsen: Let me say why I'm talking to you, because you got 7,000 dentists listening to you that highly respect you and regards you. I find that there's a lot of resistance on the part of dental laboratories to dentist doing so much cosmetic dentistry without removing so much tooth structure.
Howard Farran: See, that's another thing you were ground zero from. Minimally invasive dentistry. You were doing it before anybody even said minimally invasive dentistry. You knew from day one, that peeling off all the enamel is never a good idea.
Robert Ibsen: That's right. What I didn't know, I do know now. That when I would do my restorations, I would just do the wax up. If it looked good, we press it in porcelain. For 30 years, I've been doing bonded [porce 00:02:54] veneers, never given one patient an aspirin, an injection. I used the patient's sensory system to tell me when I should stop removing tooth structure. If you don't remove sensitive tooth structure, you won't irritate the pulp. If you don't irritate the pulp, you won't have sensitivity during or after, and you won't have root canals. You know that a lot of dentists that have been taught techniques for doing veneers have had patients that experienced a lot of sensitivity. In common cases, they have to go to an endodontist to get the nerves remove.
That prevents you from helping a lot of people who have beautiful teeth that could look better in alignment. All you have to do is take an impression, give it to a knowledgeable technician who can do a beautiful wax up for you, and then press it in porcelain. It doesn't have to be uniform. It doesn't have to be contact lens. Then you always know when you're getting the wrong information when they're using euphemisms like contact lens [inaudible 00:04:06]. Sometimes it is, sometimes it's very thick. I'll show you some examples a little later of things that I've done without ever having to give the patient one drop.
Howard Farran: Bob, I want you to talk to these dentists about one thing. The dentist will tell you, if you say that does root canals. I'll say, "What percent of your root canals fail?" They go, "Oh, knock on wood. I've never had one fail." Then you go to the 4,000 endodontists, and they say that 3 out 4 root canals they do is a re-treat. Are all these re-treats just done on patients that emigrated from another country? Secondly, if you ask any of these cosmetic dentists, "Hey, if you prep upper 10 for veneers, in 10 years what percent of those teeth need a root canal?" They go, "Knock on wood, it's never happened to me because I think I do it just right." Then you go to the endodontist. How many times do you have to do a root canal on some tooth that had all the enamel prepped up for veneers?" They go, "Oh, every other day."
The dentists only know what they know. They don't know what they don't know. Bob, so tell them. If you prep conventionally the upper 10 teeth or upper 10 veneers, 10 to 20 years later, what percent of those teeth do you think died and needed a root canal?
Robert Ibsen: I used to say what Charlie Stuart. Charlie was a guru of gnathology and occlusion. He used to say that porcelain fused to metal crowns were tombstones. They mark the site of where a tooth has died or about to die. It's [traumaed 00:05:42]. If you don't traumatize the tooth, you'll never have to do root canal on it unless it's for some other trauma. Most of the endodontic restorations are done on teeth that have restorations. Some of those needed restorations. Here's how I am able to do all my cases without anesthetic. I'm selective in what I treat. In other words, you've got patients right now in your practice who have teeth that are little crooked and that and they would like to have them look better if they didn't have to have their teeth ground down. There's a huge opportunity that the profession is missing because we've been told by dental laboratories how much tooth structure to remove. That means a shot. That means sensitive tooth structure.
Then if you want to do things with the gingiva, you want to get your gingival architecture established and have that accomplished before you take the impression for my veneers. I go to the technicians. Once we got the foundation set, no caries, they're eligible for 6-month check recall appointments, and they like their teeth to look better. Then these people become a candidate. We show them what can be accomplished without shots or drilling. I take an impression. We have a wax up with the technician who knows what he's doing and good at cosmetics, because not all technicians are that good. They teach us to cut the tooth structure down because that's what we did when you and I got out of school, because that's how we got retention. Remember a party or preparation was for retention, one of the steps?
Howard Farran: Bob, I want to ask you something kind of a ... I want to say this politically correct. I mean obviously anybody can say I was born in Kansas. You can tell me I was born in a barn in Kansas. When I look at the cosmetic things I want to first throw me under bus. Look, I'm a short, fat, bald guy. I'm the first to admit it. When these dentists are talking about, well they have to remove tooth structure to keep the tooth uniformed thickness to make it look all natural. Bob when I look at these fancy women, there's nothing natural looking about them. They got bleach blond hair. They got red lipstick on that doesn't look natural. I mean when you see a woman with red lipstick, do you say? "Wow! You're vermilion border has very dilated arteries and veins. There are so much blood on those lips. They just look amazingly red."
When they get boob jobs, the number one complain of a boob job is that they're too small. They got these boobs that defy gravity and their pointing up towards the stars. I don't look at. They got long fingernails painted. They got high heeled shoes on. When I look at a made-up woman, there's nothing-
Robert Ibsen: Do you have that magazine here?
Howard Farran: There's nothing natural about it. Why are you?
Robert Ibsen: [crosstalk 00:08:37]
Howard Farran: Why are you stripping off all their enamel to do something when I don't even see anything natural look in this woman. Furthermore, if you thicken the teeth even just a millimeter, they're lips are more full. They have less wrinkles. They're getting Botox and dermal filler for that anyway. I just don't understand why we're stripping off enamel to make a woman more beautiful when she's already drop dead gorgeous to begin with. What is the deal there?
Robert Ibsen: Of course. Part of the problem is the patient. There's the last question I ask in our smile evaluation is what would you like your teeth to look like? That's the answer you got to satisfy. What would you like your teeth to look like? Now some people think that's beautiful, just what you're talking about. It's unnaturally beautiful, but they like that. I had a lady one time when I was a younger dentist. I was 62, she was 68. That's when I learned about older women. She came in and she was a perfect case. The endodontic or the periodontist had done all his work. Referred her and her teeth were crooked, discolored. I could not miss. Those are the easy cases.
The hard ones are when they're at 9 and they want to go to a 10. Those are tough. Anyway, I took the impression and I did everything. It just went along beautiful and I gave her a shade A2. Normally when I put these kind of patient, I'm finished. Then I give them the mirror they, "Oh doctor, you're wonderful." How many women throw their arms around an 83-year-old man and say you're wonderful? That's why I still do this because it's so easy to be wonderful. There's no work involved. If you know what you're doing.
Howard Farran: Are you 83?
Robert Ibsen: I'm 83, yeah.
Howard Farran: God dang you look good Bob. You look amazing.
Robert Ibsen: Well thank you. That's because I don't kill the pulps.
Howard Farran: Who was the orthodontist friend that you always hang out that was 10, 20 years older than you when I first met you 30 years ago?
Robert Ibsen: Who was the dentist?
Howard Farran: Yeah.
Robert Ibsen: You mean did the freshman years?
Howard Farran: No, your friend. When I met you 30 years ago.
Robert Ibsen: Oh, [Harold Case 00:10:51]
Howard Farran: Harold Case. Gosh, I love Harold.
Robert Ibsen: He was a wonderful guy. I miss him.
Howard Farran: I miss him too.
Robert Ibsen: I say good morning to him every morning when I walk in the office. I got his picture on my desk.
Howard Farran: How old was he when he passed on?
Robert Ibsen: He was 90 something. He was a good guy.
Howard Farran: God, he was a great guy.
Robert Ibsen: Yeah. He was just a tremendous person as well as a good dentist.
Howard Farran: If anyone makes it to 100, I got my money on it too.
Robert Ibsen: Anyway, when I give this 68-year-old woman a mirror to look at her teeth, she looks and she's quiet. She didn't get excited and say, "How wonderful I was." That was a little bit of a tip off there. Then she asked the question you never want to hear after you're done. "Are these the right shade?" So I explained to her that I gave her the perfect shade for her age. The four-letter word is bad, but the 3-letter word is worse.
Howard Farran: What's the 4-letter word?
Robert Ibsen: Oh I don't know.
Howard Farran: Okay. I was thinking weight. That's 5 letters. They'll never tell you their weight, but age.
Robert Ibsen: Anyhow, [crosstalk 00:11:56] age is when. She didn't buy what I had to tell her. She wasn't happy, but it was a perfect result. One of the best cases I ever did. Anyhow, I gave her an appointment in 3 months. I said, "You'll get used to it. You'll like it and everything." I get a call the next day. The next day she's on the phone and she says, "Dr. Ibsen about the shade." I start giving her my routine. She interrupts me real quick and she says, "Dr. Ibsen I don't like the shade, and my friends don't like the shade." I said, "You better come right in." I had to take a perfect case off. Go from A1 and put on the whitest bleach shade teeth I could put on her because you were talking about unnaturally cosmetic, but that's what some women want. We got it all finished and I changed them all for her. It's the only case I've ever had to remove and replace, because I didn't give her what she asked for. That's why I want to make sure we get that across this interview. You better give your patients what they're looking for. That's why I ask that question what would you like your teeth look like?
Howard Farran: What shade did you give her?
Robert Ibsen: I gave her the lightest bleach shade you could give her.
Howard Farran: Which is what?
Robert Ibsen: Oh, I don't know what is it.
Howard Farran: B1, B2?
Robert Ibsen: B1, lighter than B1. If I had Lisa her, she could tell you.
Howard Farran: I know. I have 3 patients that they just do cosmetic surgeries on women. They say that 9 out of 10 women after a breast augmentation said they're too small; 9 out of 10 no matter what size you put in. They're never big enough.
Robert Ibsen: They're never big enough. You got to read. There's a good book called Self-Image Psychology by Maxwell Maltz. You could pass it on to your interviews. He was a plastic surgeon in the 30s, and 40s, and 50s, and 60s, or something.
Howard Farran: Self-Image Psychology by who?
Robert Ibsen: Maxwell Maltz, M-A-L-T-Z. He was a plastic surgeon that found that some patients when he corrected their cosmetic defect and solved their problem, but some it didn't. They had to find out what the real problem was. Anyway back to her when she left, she had a white teeth. She had red lips, hot pants and no varicose veins. She liked to hang out at one of the local. We live on the coast up here pretty close to it. They have a place called Ventanas and a sports bar. She would sit there with her senior citizens or late term adolescence. Another good book you may want to pick up where you got these guys on her called Spring Chicken by Bill Gifford. It's all about people that are studying longevity and how you can live forever. It's a Spring Chicken: How You Can Live Forever (or Die Trying).
Howard Farran: I just want to point out that now that I lived half a century, all leaders are readers. Bob's only been on this interview for not even 15 minutes, and he's already mentioned 2 books he's read. Self-Image Psychology by Maxwell Maltz and Spring Chicken by Bill Gifford. I'm telling you, and a lot of dentists always say to you, "How do you have time to read?" Then you look at them and they have so many television programs that they watch. It's like, "Well you know, maybe your television time is a little excessive."
Robert Ibsen: You know, that's where I read. I put my book on the television thing. I got the bible. I got the books. I've read the bible but the bible is kind of slow going. Bill Gifford is a kind of fun. I read a chapter or two because it really have some interesting characters working on longevity.
Howard Farran: So you're a Catholic, right?
Robert Ibsen: I am.
Howard Farran: What do you think of this new pope?
Robert Ibsen: Well, he's a nice guy.
Howard Farran: He really is. I mean I tell you my-
Robert Ibsen: He is. How could you not like him?
Howard Farran: I know. I just did not see that coming. I mean he's just ... What a rock star. He's just a television rock star. Good old boy.
Robert Ibsen: Well, look how he lives. He lives in a one-bedroom hotel room where he gets room service. He doesn't live in the big castles and all that. Apparently, I'm no expert on him but I guess he used to ride motorcycles. You ride a motorcycle don't you?
Howard Farran: No, I ride a bicycle.
Robert Ibsen: Oh, really?
Howard Farran: I'm too fat to get a Harley Davidson. The last thing I need is gas propulsion.
Robert Ibsen: Anyhow, I guess he's kind of an off the wall guy. So, whatever. Let's get back to some of the things-
Howard Farran: Bob I'm going to say about the pope comment to you. I don't know any dentist that made one percent of the money you made over the years. When you sold DenMat and you sold Rembrandt, you're made up man, and you're still the most down to earth, humblest guy I know. When you had more money than Bill Gates, you still were approachable. I'll never forget when I went to revisit you one time, I had my 4 boys with me. You let us spend the night at your house. I mean you're just a down to earth humble guy. Oh my god! While we were talking, they were destroying your house. I felt so bad. You and Marcy didn't even care.
Robert Ibsen: No, we didn't care. It was your boys. No, we didn't care at all. Thank you so much for that. Actually if you think about it, how did I make that money? I made that money because I was protecting people's pulps. I've never killed a pulp. I've never given a patient an aspirin for any cosmetic dentistry. Now, I've done a lot of gold crowns, and bridges, and it's still there 30 and 40 years later. I've never killed a pulp for cosmetic dentistry. This is for those patients who have no sensitivity, no problems. You've established a good dentition and they want to look better. They don't want their teeth cut down. This is an example of something. I'll show this one to you if this shows up here. You got this. This is Amy. She's a volunteer at the hospital. My hygienist of I don't know, 40 years, or 30 years, or whatever. Anyhow, she brought her in to fix one tooth, and I did. She's, "Oh, that's wonderful." Then I said, "You just won the lottery." I did this for Amy right here. It's on our website too, isn't it?
Howard Farran: Beautiful.
Robert Ibsen: Yeah. See that. Now I posted this on Dentaltown and the couple of the townies are real hard-nosed guys and they tried to complain about it and everything. She's getting along beautifully. If you listen to a couple of townies that are talking about cosmetics to satisfy a technician or another dentist, they would think this isn't just quite right, and that's quite right. She has a beautiful smile. She's so happy. She's got a boyfriend now. She's 89.
Howard Farran: When dentists tell you they're patient-focused, they don't even get it. What percent of the dentists do you think are patient-centered practices?
Robert Ibsen: Well, I tell you, our problem is the dental technicians. They taught us how to do crowns. They taught us how to do full coverage. They taught us how to do everything on stone models. They ignore that fact this is a patient. With this technique, you can take an orthodontic patient at 16 years of age that's had a perfect orthodontic result, but the teeth aren't quite there. Do we have a couple of those I could show right here? Right here. She's not 16. We've got some of those on our book. Anyway, well here's one. Okay, look at that open bite. See that?
Howard Farran: Yes I do.
Robert Ibsen: Is Judy here yet? Is Judy here? Okay. Now I want you to take a look at how we close the bite. See that?
Howard Farran: Yes.
Robert Ibsen: Okay. Here's Judy. I just had breakfast with her this morning. She's a friend of my brothers. Where is she? Okay. I'll let Judy sit in the chair. Then, you can look at her and I'll keep talking. Okay, you sit in the chair Judy. No, no, keep everything on. You just sit there and put your ... Look at this right here.
Howard Farran: Hi Judy.
Judy: Hi, how are you?
Howard Farran: Good, how are you doing?
Robert Ibsen: Now, give him a big smile.
Howard Farran: Oh, beautiful. You're already beautiful to begin with, but even more beautiful now.
Robert Ibsen: Put your teeth together and smile, and rotate your head.
Howard Farran: Beautiful.
Robert Ibsen: So we give your pictures. Okay, Judy.
Howard Farran: Do you like them Judy? Do you like them?
Robert Ibsen: She worked for us with DenMat for a while. I was reluctant to ever do anything with bonding, but I never gave her anesthetic or anything. We did her with a wax up.
Howard Farran: That's an interesting point I just want to clarify. A lot of people don't hear correctly and they think that you're saying no prep veneers. That's really not a good term. What you're saying is more geniusly intuitive that you can prep a tooth as long as there's no anesthetic and they're not feeling any discomfort. You can lengthen, sharpen, you can do whatever. If you're not damaging their tooth enough to where they need to be numbed up, then we're all good.
Robert Ibsen: You know, you have just said it perfectly. I wish I could have said it that way. You got to use Twitters a lot of times to get people's attention. No prep gets people's attention. We should say no removal of sensitive tooth structure. Here's an example of an orthodontic patient. Okay.
Howard Farran: Gorgeous.
Robert Ibsen: She just got finished. See. Because I don't have to remove any sensitive tooth structure, I put them on. Sure they get a little thicker, but it's not that much. The people that are technicians don't want us to see this. They want to make it more complicated.
Howard Farran: Only a dentist could look at a gorgeous woman and say her teeth are too thick. No normal human being could do that.
Robert Ibsen: Let's put it this way. Even if they are too thick, and I can show you many that are "too thick" as teeth go. I can tell you this, that you would never know when you're looking at their facial profile if the teeth are too thick. They get used to them right away with appropriate reception.
Howard Farran: Yeah. Then what's more if you're bonding these veneers on to enamel, what's a better bonding. Bonding a veneer onto enamel or bring the enamel and bonding it on dentin? You're the guy who started Dental Materials. What would you rather bond to, enamel or dentin?
Robert Ibsen: You know, that answer. There's 2 surfaces of the-
Howard Farran: You got to answer it because there are 7,000 people listening and they're might be kids who don't know.
Robert Ibsen: My point, that's 2 surfaces that are the best to bond to. Enamel and porcelain. Did you know that?
Howard Farran: I know that you're another cutting edge. You would silanate the porcelain and you would bond the porcelain, and other people would just ... They wouldn't even believe that you could do that. How many times have you done that?
Robert Ibsen: Oh, routinely.
Howard Farran: How long did it last?
Robert Ibsen: Give me Mark Adam's pictures. Routinely. I treat porcelain surfaces like I treat enamel surfaces, and dentin surfaces, but I give the proper surface treatment for the surface.
Howard Farran: What is the proper surface treatment on porcelain to be able to bond them?
Robert Ibsen: On porcelain, we treated just like they make a composite. You see, I had an advantage. I made these composites. The way I wrote my first book. Okay, here. This is good.
Howard Farran: Do you have a copy of your first book?
Robert Ibsen: I think I got one around. It's really old.
Howard Farran: I know. I want it Bob.
Robert Ibsen: It's the fifth book.
Howard Farran: I got the first 3 books written by G.V. Black autographed and signed. I've always wanted your book. I want your book autographed and signed.
Robert Ibsen: Okay. We'll get you one, but they're old and [inaudible 00:24:04].
Howard Farran: Fine enough. I know. I want it. I absolutely.
Robert Ibsen: It is not very thick.
Howard Farran: I almost bought Pierre Fauchard's book on eBay. I cringed. It's a chunk of change, but I don't want tell you because then you're going to sell me your book.
Robert Ibsen: I'm not going to sell. I'm going to give it to you.
Howard Farran: I seriously want it. I really do want it. I think it's a historical groundbreaking book. I think it was the first ... I mean in all history wise, you wrote the first book in cosmetic dentistry.
Robert Ibsen: All the books you've read are by erudite authors and are they're thick. I've got the thinnest book on the biggest development in dentistry, called Adhesive Restorative Dentistry by Ibsen and Neville. The way I found out about adhesion, is I used to fly my own plane. I had a guy, one of my lab techs come in and says, "You know there's a company in South El Monte that makes sealants." I got in my plane and flew down there and met a guy by the name of Henry Lee, Lee Pharmaceuticals, Lee Nails.
Howard Farran: What city was he in?
Robert Ibsen: In South El Monte.
Howard Farran: Didn't he graduate? What dental school did he graduate from?
Robert Ibsen: He's not a dentist. He's a PhD.
Howard Farran: Oh, he was a-
Robert Ibsen: No, he's not a PhD. Okay, I'll give you a little history in him.
Howard Farran: What was his name again? What was his name?
Robert Ibsen: Henry Lee.
Howard Farran: Henry Lee from Lee Pharmaceuticals.
Robert Ibsen: Right.
Howard Farran: Which was as pressed on nails.
Robert Ibsen: Pressed on nails. He got his degree in Chemical Engineering at MIT. He got his PhD from a diploma mill over the drugstore on the second floor of LA City College right across from them. The dean of the school was an ex-convict from San Quentin. He's a brilliant guy. He really is, but he missed it because he was not ... All I ever want to do is help people. I figured there's enough people to help and there's enough money to be made. I think that a good example of what you said, I mean the way you described all the money more than me and Bill Gates. I think Bill called me the other day and asked me what to do. That's a joke. We dentists are the noncoms of the wealthy, just remember that if you know what that means.
Howard Farran: Noncoms of the wealthy?
Robert Ibsen: You know how they have non-commissioned officers after they've been in a long time. They're good guys. They're not officers. They get to hang out the officers' clubs. We get to hang out with the guys that are like Mark Zuckerberg. Did you know that Mark Zuckerberg's father is a dentist?
Howard Farran: Yes. Ed Zuckerberg.
Robert Ibsen: Have you interviewed him yet?
Howard Farran: Yes, I have.
Robert Ibsen: Oh, he's a great guy.
Howard Farran: He gave us some great Facebook tips.
Robert Ibsen: Yeah. I took a course through him. I went up to him and I said, "You know, aren't you a little disappointed your son never followed in your footsteps?" He says, "Well, we've always encouraged our children to think." What is that kind of wealth when you got all of that so? It's a lot of fun out there.
Howard Farran: You know what? Ed's a dentist. His wife's a psychiatrist. They had 4 kids. I had 4 kids. That is the most down to earth, balanced, humble, great, family. One of the greatest ones I met. You just know Mark Zuckerberg's got to be a good guy.
Robert Ibsen: He speaks Chinese very well too because at home, his wife is Chinese.
Howard Farran: You know what's funny because Ed's a dentist. He married an MD. Mark Zuckerberg married someone like his mom, an MD. I just think it's romantic and cute.
Robert Ibsen: She's Chinese [inaudible 00:27:35]. She's Chinese and she's an MD. At home they speak Chinese, Mandarin, or whatever it is. When he went to China, he was a big hit because he could converse in the Chinese language.
Howard Farran: Unbelievable.
Robert Ibsen: He's just a nice guy. Anyhow, this is an example because we were talking about porcelain surfaces. Let's take a look at this one. I think it's the left central that is a porcelain veneer, covering a porcelain crown. Now I put 10 veneers in there.
Howard Farran: Bob, let me just ask the question. My job is answering a question. There's a dentist and they're saying, "Well Bob, I mean-"
Robert Ibsen: The patient is a dentist.
Howard Farran: Wow! Why wouldn't you just remove the crown? I mean just for a question's sake? Why wouldn't you just remove the crown?
Robert Ibsen: All right. That's a good question, because if it was my crown I'd rather have a veneer put on than to cut it off. Now a lot of laboratories will tell you, "Make a new crown." Let's take a look at Amy again. I want you to look at Amy real close. Look at her upper left cuspid.
Howard Farran: Right. [inaudible 00:28:47].
Robert Ibsen: There's a cantilever bridge. That's a bridge that was put there 60 years ago. Sixty years ago and it's still there. Is that a failure or is that a success? See that's a functional success. That was a very good dentist. Why do I want to take that out? How do I know my next restoration is going to last as long as the one that's there? If you have a clinically sound situation, why remove it? All right. Here's another one. Let me show you something here. Let's take a look right up here. Now, this is a dentist that did this is an excellent dentist. I'd sit in his chair any day to have my work done by him. It's perfect. He's absolutely perfect. He's a pilot. He restores things. He's everything. That is perfect dentistry.
Howard Farran: He says, "What impressed me the most was the simplicity of the overall procedure."
Robert Ibsen: Yes, because I did it for one of his employees. He came in to see me and I took an impression. There I put the porce veneers over the porcelain crowns.
Howard Farran: Bob, how many dentists have you treated over the years?
Robert Ibsen: Oh, I don't know. Probably hundreds.
Howard Farran: Yeah. So if you're listening to this guy, I mean come on. The biggest compliment you can get that you know your dentistry is when other dentists sit in your chair.
Robert Ibsen: Okay. Now, here's something where I encourage ... This is a part of you can help a lot with. I encourage his dentist to come watch the procedure. Now I asked him if he like, to tell him to come; and I never heard from the dentist. Now the guy comes in to get his veneer. See, right here. He comes in to get the veneers. He brings his wife with him and a letter. Usually, when they bring their mother or their wife with them, they want to talk about something. The guy tells all the things that might happen. All of which have been rumors that are false about non-prep and all that, and all that resistance. We've got to get dentists to understand what they can do and can't do if it's [inaudible 00:31:01] this no-prep idea.
I told him I had never had this experience. Anytime he wanted, now get this and remember the advantages. Anytime I do a case and they're not satisfied, I can take it off and put them back to where they were when I started. You can't do that after you alter a tooth and you put shoulders and margins on it. You've seen some of the lawsuits that have been taken place where dentist over cut the teeth. Where's that headline? Do we have that around Christy? Anyhow, this is him afterwards. This dentist could have been doing the same thing. Yet he never wanted to find out, but he restores airplanes. Let me show you another case that just came in. This is a failure. That's why I want to show it to you. Look at the top one. See that, on the cuspid and the lateral. It's fractured. See that? Can you see?
Howard Farran: Yes.
Robert Ibsen: Okay. Now, guess what I did? I took it off. No anesthetic. See, I put that on 28 years ago. Now look at the teeth 28 years later. They're just as good as the day I put the veneer on. See, the veneer strengthens them.
Howard Farran: So Bob, why do you think dentists just always have to get out their drill and drill off enamel?
Robert Ibsen: Because that's how we were taught in school. I will admit I have a lot of advantage in having designed some adhesive materials. I had a dentist come up to me one time in the New York after we come out with the porcelain repair cut. He says, "Bob, I can't bond. I can't even bond a porcelain." He challenged me. I says, "Well you can't but I can." Then he went to argue with me. He said, "Tell you what? We don't have to agree to be friends, do we?" We became friends. That's the beginning, you got to be friends. A lot of people have been teaching cut down too much to make them more of an expert. They go out and get 3-, $4,000 a tooth. I get maybe 900, maybe 500. I just do this for fun. I kept my office, it's my yacht. Then I get to go down there and do these things for people. That's a lot of fun. The yacht never leaves port.
Howard Farran: Bob, here's another thing I want to tell these young kids about successful dentists. It's funny. The only things I really like to watch on TV is that I know it's silly but I'm addicted to the Arizona Cardinals NFL Football. I know it's silly. The other thing is I like Shark Tank. When you're pitching a business idea on Shark Tank, and if you have an exit strategy, Mark Cuban says, "If you already have an exit strategy, I pass." He won't even put a dollar on this very thing about retiring. Watching successful dentists over the last 28 years and successful business people, they never retire. You're 83 years old and you're sitting in a dental office. You go on Dentaltown, and there's all these threads about how can I retire at 55? How much I got to put away? They already want to quit their job and their looking forward to retirement.
You've got more money than everybody on that thread combined, and you're 83 and still doing it. What advice would you give to those young kids who hate their job and are already looking forward to retirement, and trying to fund their 401K, and their pensions, and all that because they want to get out of it? What father-son advice would you give them?
Robert Ibsen: When I got out of school at USC, we were considered to be the one of the schools, Gulf oil operators and top drawer. All I want to do is be a better dentist. I enjoyed dentistry. Somehow, they don't enjoy dentistry. Now many of the techniques that they're following, I mean who could enjoy dentistry more than I do when I don't have to give you a shot and I could make these transformations like this, and they can too.
Howard Farran: Bob do you think they don't enjoy dentistry because they're hard wired birds with a bad attitude? Do you think they got a normal brain and has just a bad attitude? What do you think it is?
Robert Ibsen: Most of them I found are really sincere guys.
Howard Farran: I love them. I absolutely love them.
Robert Ibsen: They have a level excellence that's unrealistic.
Howard Farran: Correct.
Robert Ibsen: They're being told what's excellent by a laboratory technician. They're using prep teeth as an example. Remember how we used to watch guys-
Howard Farran: They go to lectures where they get off showing their only 5 best cases. They never show a hundred of their abortion cases. Their whole get off is to make you feel that you're inferior to them. Then you go home and try to be. It's a crazy game. They just got to relax, and be humble, and realize we're all humans. At the very end, we're all going to be you know.
Robert Ibsen: Now think about if you're going to get sued, how somebody going to sue you? There's only 2 ways you never get sued. If you don't have any assets, they never sue you. The other is don't do any irreversible damage. Anything where I work on a patient, I make sure that if I'm doing something as irreversible, I've done a lot of full mouth reconstruction cases. By the way occlusion is an important part of having that knowledge when you finish a case so that you don't have traumatic occlusion in there to cause it to fracture. The bottom line is that everything I do is reversible. The world doesn't need another good dentist. There are so many good dentist out there.
Why the world needs me, is there's so many people misleading our colleagues about how much damage they have to do to a tooth in order to do something to it. Sometimes we have to when there's caries, and fractures, and things like that, but otherwise there's no need to do what I do. My goal is to have somebody still talk to me. You know, the nice thing about not having everybody agree with me is they talk to me. If everybody agreed with me, I just be another guy agreeing on G.V. Black's technique for a class 2 amalgam. We don't see lectures on that anymore. That's why I do this because every tooth that I save, I'm saving some patients somewhere from having a well-intentioned dentist doing damage to their teeth and causing them pain and suffering. When I hear people say, "I got veneers and it was an unpleasant experience." I'm saying, "That is a shame because it was so unnecessary." That's why I still do this. Now do you know what they do to you on purgatory?
Howard Farran: In purgatory, all I know. What they do?
Robert Ibsen: I got to tell you a [inaudible 00:37:54]. This was back many 30 years ago when I was just talking about using composites for bonding. The audience, it got kind of quiet in the afternoon. Then I'd asked them, I say, "You know what they do to you in purgatory?" Everybody wakes up, purgatory. Everybody knows about purgatory. I said, "All the pain and suffering you caused in life that you didn't need to, you get to experience before you get to heaven." So all those teeth you cut down that you didn't need to, now that you know. Man, did I sell a lot of product afterwards. Now, I got a problem in 2007. Credit Suisse comes along and the plan was to expand this opportunity for the whole world. So I thought, "This is great." It turned out to be that somehow another of the guys. I sold them a cosmetic company. They bought it-
Howard Farran: DenMat.
Robert Ibsen: True, DenMat. They bought the Dental Materials company and the dental lab. They're not the same. Anyhow, that's what that-
Howard Farran: What year did you sell DenMat?
Robert Ibsen: 2007.
Howard Farran: 2007? What year did you sell Rembrandt?
Robert Ibsen: 2004.
Howard Farran: By the way when I die I'm not going to purgatory. I'm going to go get a double whopper with cheese. I've figured they're zero calories after you died. I'm going to skip purgatory. I'd have an [inaudible 00:39:13]
Robert Ibsen: Anyway, the problem that I have is that now I go to heaven. They say, "Ibsen, did you have a nice time?" I said, "Well, of course. I did this, I did that you know, and I saved all these people." They said, "Well, you know. They didn't carry on your thought of protecting the pulp. So all of those people, you could have been teaching while you were sitting on a boat drinking too much booze. You could have been teaching other dentist not to kills pulps. So all those dentists that you could have helped, and prevented, you got to experience all the pulps they killed because you didn't do something." That's why I still do this because it's a lot of fun, besides. That's why I continue to do this. I'm still relevant. Here you are-
Howard Farran: You'd be more relevant and you'd make my day. You've never even built me one online CE course on Dentaltown. You should do this. You should do this online CE course because Bob, we put 350 courses. They've been viewed over half a million times in all 206 countries.
Robert Ibsen: I'm working on one right now for Howard. Is that the courses you're talking about?
Howard Farran: Oh, you work with Howard Goldstein?
Robert Ibsen: Yeah.
Howard Farran: Awesome. How do you know I know that?
Robert Ibsen: You told me too.
Howard Farran: Yeah. You're going to do it?
Robert Ibsen: We were working on it now to try to make sure that it's clear. One is on the patient for bonding porcelain to porcelain. We got maybe ... How many videos? 50, 100, 200 videos. I got a studio in my office. I joke, I mean you've heard of my office as my yacht because I used to go have a glass of wine with some of my buddies and we get a big boat. They want to impress me. We go out and we sit at the dock and drink a glass of wine. That was fun. Now, I go to my office and I put veneers on people and they say, "I'm wonderful." Nobody told me I was wonderful after I was drinking. Nobody told me I was wonderful after I play the golf. They tell me after I give them a new smile. "Oh doctor, you're so wonderful."
Howard Farran: When I play golf, the golf course always ask me to please never come back. You sold Rembrandt in 2004. How is Rembrandt on today? It's 2015, do you still think Rembrandt is a better toothpaste for people who have a lot of anterior composites or direct composite veneers? Originally you had made that because you thought the Rembrandt toothpaste left a better luster on the direct composite veneer. Is that still the deal?
Robert Ibsen: Well, it did. Here's how that happened. See, there's always a problem and a solution. I had enough knowledge of chemistry and I came slowly in how to solve problems using chemistry for solutions. Here's the way it worked. I'm doing direct bonded composites on my patient say like changing the rotation of a lateral just by putting the composite on it. Patients would come back in and they say, "You know doc, that looked pretty good when you put it in, but then after a while it started getting dull and stained." Then I looked at all the toothpaste. All the whitening toothpaste out there before Rembrandt, relying on abrasion. I decided to take a different approach. I got the formula for the lowest abrasion toothpaste you could find. That would do nothing with abrasion to remove the stain. Then I put some enzymes in there. Why? To remove the plaque and the pellicle on the teeth because that's what's staining.
I put that in there. We put in a sodium citrate. We put in papain and aluminum oxide which we use for final polishing. We put in the lowest abrasion toothpaste that we've continuously polished teeth. We subjected it to a double-blind study at Boston University. When it came out, we were better than Crest and Crest Tartar Control. It cleaned better with lower abrasion. That's how Rembrandt got started. Of course we had Procter & Gamble didn't call me up and say, "Oh, let's be buddies because we were saying better than Crest and Crest Tartar Control."
Howard Farran: You sold it to Procter & Gamble didn't you?
Robert Ibsen: No. Here's the way that-
Howard Farran: Then they got swallowed by Gillette.
Robert Ibsen: No, here's the way that went. Rembrandt, the toothpaste was going just great; retailers loved it. It was a premium toothpaste. It was all over the world. What happened was that Crest came out with Whitestrips. We always wanted to come out of their bleaching agent and go over the counter with it, but I didn't want my buddies to get mad at me and start knocking my toothpaste. I didn't do it. When Crest came out with Whitestrips, we thought like in a racing; you draft behind the lead racer. We thought we'd come out with our whitening. It didn't bother anybody. We had all the clinical studies. We gave better value. We gave more bleaching. Everything is better than Crest Whitestrips. We thought we're going to do it to them again because we had 80% of their premium market in a premium price. Retailers loved us because we represented more profit to the retailer. They want to have it there. As you know, it was just a [inaudible 00:44:28] category like soap.
Anyway what happened was that, we took the Rembrandt and put the ads out, and told them how much better we were than Whitestrips and everything. Now the total market for over the counter whitening at that time that we and Crest Whitestrips came out was $30 million.
Howard Farran: What year? 30 million dollars. Is that just for US?
Robert Ibsen: US, now-
Howard Farran: In 2004?
Robert Ibsen: Probably 2003.
Howard Farran: Okay, 2003.
Robert Ibsen: Anyhow we thought, "Man we're going to really whip them good", and we did. We got $30 million in sales our first year. You know what Crest Whitestrips got? $600 million and I says, "Wow! What did they do? We had the better product." We had the A. That was a C student going out there getting to be ahead of the company. You know what I mean? We've talked about that right? Sometimes they had the better practices. Anyway, I'm looking. I say, "What is it that Procter did?" Because they were always so engineering type. I saw an ad in a women's magazine that said, "Hey left, right, left, right, toy soldiers marching across the page. Crest Whitestrips. Left, right, left, right, Crest Whitestrips." I said, "How are you going to compete with that?"
The way we got to Gillette was that I said, "Okay, Gillette would buy our toothpaste." Gillette couldn't make a toothpaste they could sell like ours did. They would buy our toothpaste as a premium to sell their toothbrushes. I called the guy up. I can't think of his name right now. I says, "Tell you what? You sell it and we'll make it." He says, "Oh, why don't we just buy you." I said, "We don't want to sell." We negotiated, negotiated, negotiated, and finally I asked them. I said, "Why are you offering this so little for Rembrandt?" He says we got to close your company. It's going to cost us a lot of money. I says, "I gave you a deal." You just buy Rembrandt and we'll keep the company. That's how we did that. Three months after Gillette bought Rembrandt, comes along Procter and Gamble. They offer to buy Gillette.
We had an agreement where there was future payments out there based on it. We had a little discussions there which worked out okay, but the bottom line was that Procter and Gamble could not buy Gillette unless Rembrandt was divested. Gillette divested Rembrandt and sold it to Johnson & Johnson. So now when you see, if you go to the website for Rembrandt, you'll see how Johnson & Johnson mentions that I was the developer and everything in it. It's still on the shelf. They don't spend any money advertising, but it's all over the world as a premium toothpaste. I still pay retail for it all over. I guess I get it on Amazon now. The bottom line is, it's still the best toothpaste. It still works the best.
There's a couple other good ones out there that we are trying. One of them is from Arm and Hammer, PeroxiCare. That's seems to give good results. Another one is Kirkland with their deep cleaning toothpaste. I saw a few patients that had good results with that. Anyhow, I'm totally out of the materials business and I'm just doing this primarily for helping the world know they don't have to have their teeth cut down. Now, what I wouldn't mind doing is hooking up with somebody's got a thousand offices and says, "We can do porce veneers without shots or drilling." That's why we call it SmileSimplicity.
Howard Farran: Have you talked to Rick Workman? He has 1,500 offices.
Robert Ibsen: No I haven't. I don't know who to talk to. I should have been talking to you.
Howard Farran: Rick Workman. You both got a jet. Why don't you just call me at 30,000 feet over Phoenix and I'll try to jump up off my ceiling and catch you guys.
Robert Ibsen: Well sure. I would like to do that.
Howard Farran: Rick Workman would love to you meet you. He's from Effingham, Illinois of Santa Maria.
Robert Ibsen: I never heard of Rick Workman. So you have to put it-
Howard Farran: Have you heard of Heartland Dental Care?
Robert Ibsen: Who?
Howard Farran: Heartland Dental Care.
Robert Ibsen: Oh, they have my respect because he goes out for quality.
Howard Farran: Then there's another one in your backyard. Another great guy, Steve Thorne that owns Pacific Dental Services.
Robert Ibsen: Oh yeah, them.
Howard Farran: Bob, how did you pick the name Rembrandt?
Robert Ibsen: We were sitting there. We had just developed this toothpaste. We had this study. We had a really good marketing guy. He says, "We call it, why don't we call it the DenMat." It wasn't for toothpaste. It was for different color raisins to modify their composite because in those days, we only had one shade of composite. If you wanted gray, you use [Kerr 00:49:33]. If you wanted something that was A1, you wanted to use [inaudible 00:49:38]. By putting these raisins together with [inaudible 00:49:42], we call it the DenMat Shade Modification Kit. He said this guy, he says, "You got to put something with possess to it." I says, "Like what?" He starts rattling off names. One of them was Rembrandt.
Well, who was Rembrandt? The master of color, and art, and everything. We call it the Rembrandt Shade Modification Kit. Then we had a crazy PR guy John Lockhart. I don't know if you ever met him. He went out and got us on The Today Show. We were on The Today Show with Rembrandt. What was the guy's name that was on there? Bryant Gumbel was on there. I'm trying to think of the dentist. He was a dentist on Beverly Hills. Bryant Gumbel says, "They're going to change your teeth. They're going to paint fillings on your teeth." They got so many calls coming in as it went through the time zone. Everybody remember Rembrandt. The dentists called in. The patients called in. We want Rembrandt. We want Rembrandt.
When we came out with the toothpaste, we said, "You know, Rembrandt has been quiet for a while. People don't really think a Rembrandt is a shade modification kit that much." We said, "Let's call our toothpaste Rembrandt for the art of brushing."
Howard Farran: Oh, the art of brushing.
Robert Ibsen: Yeah.
Howard Farran: Wow!
Robert Ibsen: Tooth whitening. That's why we call it Rembrandt. The name Rembrandt got everybody's attention because whoever heard of a toothpaste called Rembrandt. I'll tell you another funny story. They had a quiz program. They said, "Okay. What did Rembrandt do?" [inaudible 00:51:22] "Rembrandt made a toothpaste." They forgot he was a famous artist. He's probably up in heaven waiting for me now.
Howard Farran: He was born in 1606 in the Netherlands which means lowlands. They pronounced it Netherlands.
Robert Ibsen: In Dutch. He's Dutch.
Howard Farran: 1606. Sir Isaac Newton was what? 1687, Principles of Mathematical-
Robert Ibsen: I guess. I guess.
Howard Farran: He was little before.
Robert Ibsen: You look more of a student than I am.
Howard Farran: Hey Bob, I want to totally switch gears. I only got you for 8 more minutes. I can't think of anything, anybody. You graduated in dental school USC in '58. I was born in '62. I can't think of any better person to ask that. Bob, the bottom line is this. The people who teach occlusion make it this big old mystery where you almost need a Ouija board and you tell and they say, "You can't open to buy you this, blah-blah-blah." I want you to summarize what these young kids need to know about occlusion. Try to take the myth out of occlusion.
Robert Ibsen: Okay. I'll give you the Twitter and that's everything to need to know.
Howard Farran: Twitter of-
Robert Ibsen: Okay.
Howard Farran: That'd be awesome.
Robert Ibsen: Here's a deal. You need to have closure in centric, true centric. Then you got acquired centric. Charlie Stuart is a guy I studied with down in Ventura. I went there for 8 years, one day a month to learn all about occlusion. Now when you're in centric, Charlie call it the most retruded position of the mandible. By the way, here let me put some veneers on for you.
Howard Farran: I don't need veneers because I don't show any of my teeth.
Robert Ibsen: Anyway, we go down there and I kept thinking every day what was it I was taught? Closure, all the teeth meet in centric. Now if you move out of centric and you go forward, your jaw drops. You have what we call anterior disclusion. Then if you go sideways, your cuspid is longer and you get disclusion. The only time teeth touch is once, in one position and that's in centric. That's a point of contact. If you have cuspid-guided disclusion, you have anterior disclusion, and it's harmonious. You don't have any wear, you don't have any stress. Now where is true centric? Charlie would teach us it was the most retruded position of the mandible. He would push on that jaw and go back as far as he could. There's a lot of dentists in the course who still have ... We should think of Dave. What his name? He's another guy you should interview. Anyhow, I'll give you that a second. Anyway according to Charlie, it was the most retruded position of the mandible. At the same time, what's the group down of Florida? They're aware of it.
Howard Farran: Pankey Institute.
Robert Ibsen: Pankey. Pankey did not espouse that. He advocated group wear.
Howard Farran: Did you ever meet L.D. Pankey?
Robert Ibsen: No I never did, but he was a great guy.
Howard Farran: I'm sorry to interrupt. Go on.
Robert Ibsen: We didn't subscribe to uniform wear. Other than that, everything was fine. Then I noticed endodontist said that after 3, or 4, or 5 years, it had their teeth ... We almost lost there. We had their teeth 4, or 5 years later, had their teeth rebuilt with gold crowns. You see on the [inaudible 00:54:58] facets of all the teeth wear because people were shoving their jaw forward from that most retruded position. Today, I believe the correct position is what they achieved electronically. What's the group up in Seattle that's got-
Howard Farran: Kois. The Kois Center. John Kois.
Robert Ibsen: Well, before him.
Howard Farran: Seattle Study Club.
Robert Ibsen: It's the electronic device that they ... Anyhow, it's a TENS machine. That's where you locate it. That is the place where the true "centric" is. Then when you build to that, they have a device that measures that. Thy guy is in the tip of my tongue. I would be really good on ... You know you were talking about what you like to watch. I got some hard up farewells of watching Wheel of Fortune and Jeopardy.
Howard Farran: Is that why you went back to work?
Robert Ibsen: I did watch the football game last night.
Howard Farran: The Texas and the Colts.
Robert Ibsen: Yeah.
Howard Farran: Bob, I want you to spend the last 3 minutes. I want you to give some father-son advice. There's a lot of kids out there that are scared. They graduated $250,000 in debt. They think that when you were little, all the pharmacists were individual. Now they all got rolled up into Walgreens. Just a lot of kids out there and they tell me. They come by my dental office. There's 2 schools in there. They say, "I'm scared. I'm going to graduate $250,000 in debt. Is dentistry dying? Is it all going to be Walgreens? Am I going to be working for CVC like a dental tech?" What would you tell these kids that walk out of school with $250,000 debt. Do you think they're all going to go to corporate chains and be working at Walgreens someday?
Robert Ibsen: No, but some will. Some will find the corporate environment very good because they would have all their office work there; HR and all that done for them. That does offer a consolidation; like people who work at Pacific Dental are very happy there. That's because all that's being done for them. I will say this. When I came to town in Santa Maria, it was 12,000 people. If you wanted to be ethical and join the American Dental Association in the local society, you could only put your business card and name, address, rank. You could even put your serial number. Nothing else about you for one week. It was done. Now, I see so much advertising going on. I say, "Man, I hate to start now because if I was, I'd want to do something where I could advertise a point of difference."
The one thing that they're not advertising is we can change your smile without giving you any shots. Huge opportunity, a point of distinction. You can't live on that alone, unless you're in a big city where you got a large pool. The point is, it's a great point of difference when you're transforming patient smiles and you're not hurting them. There is a great opportunity. Now, let's talk about debt. Let's say the average guy owes $300,000. He graduates in dental school. Now where does he go? One, did he have to borrow that much money? Fortunately I was able to work part time and borrow most of the pay for my ... I had a very little debt when I graduated, but I did have a little bit of debt. What can you buy in a way of a house for $300,000 today? It's an average house, isn't it?
Howard Farran: Right.
Robert Ibsen: Okay. Now what have you got when you got your dental degree? You have a license where the average dentist is one of the top occupations. If you look at a lifetime of increased income that you have acquired and think of it that way, you've acquired millions in earnings over your lifetime. What is that to $300,000? See what I'm saying? It's all relative.
Howard Farran: I agree with you a thousand percent.
Robert Ibsen: When you're living on subway sandwiches, and you're getting out of school $300,000. It's really a money event.
Howard Farran: If you don't like eating a subway sandwich, you're no friend of mine. Last question. We're out of time. We're an hour of these things. We have to end an hour. Bob, there seems to be so much burnout and so many dentists who want to quit. They want to retire. There's threads on Dentaltown about America's best 401K. There's all these people just trying to pack away money to get the hell out of it. There's guys like you at 83 still doing it. You know, obviously don't have to. Guys like me I'm 53, if you told me I can never pull [inaudible 00:59:40] teeth again, ever again the rest of my life, I would probably just right now start crying.
Robert Ibsen: I know.
Howard Farran: Why do we love it and again-
Robert Ibsen: I don't know because when I graduated, that was one of my classmates said, "Oh I can't hardly wait for the day I retire." I retire the day I got my dental license, and the day I got my dental degree. I was retired. I saw what I want. I saw [inaudible 01:00:03] I want to see. That was a great age in dentistry. It still is a great age in dentistry if you pick the right things. People are looking for Botox and that. They're overlooking the opportunity to just help people look better.
Howard Farran: What advice would you give to dentist listening to you right now that's burned out, and wants to quit, and go home, and wants to retire?
Robert Ibsen: Why don't you and I put some thoughts together, and how we can put together thing on eliminating burn out? Doing better dentistry and helping more people, and increasing your income while decreasing cost to the patient. See, if we put those things together, why would ever want to stop doing that? I don't know.
Howard Farran: We're in triple overtime. I want to end on this note. When I got this wild idea that I was going to start Dentaltown.
Robert Ibsen: I know.
Howard Farran: Everybody said I was crazy. AOL dial up was stupid. I was going to do it in magazine. They go, "Howard, these magazines are owned by companies that owned 50, 80, 100 magazines and they're on big fancy cities. You're born in Kansas, you're born in a barn, you don't know anything about media." I just so wanting to do this, and to make it free, it had to be advertising driven. I told all the major companies about it. Who was the only person on Earth that took all the premium advertising spots and supported me 100%? You, Bob Ibsen. I'm trying not to [inaudible 01:01:26]. If you wouldn't have done? You bought the inside, front cover. You bought the back cover. You bought in, and you were doing it just because you saw this young little kid who had a dream. You basically bankrolled Dentaltown when nobody else saw the vision.
Robert Ibsen: Let me tell you what.
Howard Farran: In fact, I will love you forever for that. Thank you so much.
Robert Ibsen: I always said I wish I had your charm because if I did some of the jokes, I hear some of the stories you're doing on stage, people would get rid of me. You have a certain feel for dentists. You like dentists. You like what you're doing. I just think what you've done is really been great, because whoever thought a toothpaste named Rembrandt would become one of the world's premium toothpaste?
Howard Farran: I can assure you there would be no Dentaltown if you wouldn't have bankrolled me the first year buying every ... No matter what ad I told you to buy. I told you, "You know, just any of these ad?" You bought them all. Basically you're the only guy.
Robert Ibsen: If you told me that, I would have bought the magazine. I knew it.
Howard Farran: Now my whole goal, my whole dream was that in the dental office all by yourselves and I wanted to talk to guys like you and other guys. I just knew, if we hijack that internet so that no one would have to be alone, it'd be so much more happy, and healthy, and fun, and informative. We'd all do better dentistry.
Robert Ibsen: That's what we've got to teach the younger guys if you don't do some of these crazy invasive techniques. You know a lot of guys replacing implants. I've got an implant, and I believe in them. They're doing it almost indiscriminately. Then in 20, not 20, I mean for 20 months. Maybe 2, 3 years, a lot of them are failing; part of it is the implant, part of it is the knowledge of the dentist. This is where they get in trouble, is when some attorney gets it, or when they over cut teeth. That's what I'm doing this right now to save people from their teeth cut down from dentist that mean well, but because the lab told them to cut away all that tooth structure. I think that what you're doing for the profession is incredible. That shows because your business is still there. I respect you for that. When you called and said, "You want to interview me", I was amazed. I thought, "I'm just an old dentist out here in the country having fun."
Howard Farran: Oh my God! You're my idol. You're my rock star. My boys do talk about the night they spent the night at your house. Bob, I love you to death. Tell your wife Marcy. How many years you've been married now?
Robert Ibsen: 62.
Howard Farran: Oh my God. Tell her hello.
Robert Ibsen: I will.
Howard Farran: Thanks again.
Robert Ibsen: She's still in counseling.
Howard Farran: She's still in counseling. All right Bob. Thanks for all that you have done for dentistry. You're an amazing man.
Robert Ibsen: Okay. Thank you.