Marketing, a social media marketing agency located in Phoenix, AZ. She started the company in 2013 as a freshman in college with her father, Moses Sanchez. Shannon specializes in portrait and branding photography, working with photographers such as Annie Leibovitz. Since then they have grown the agency to serve over 50 professionals like Dentists, Lawyers, Plastic Surgeons through social media content creation & management, Facebook Advertising and photography.
VIDEO - DUwHF #1047 - Shannon Gilpin
AUDIO - DUwHF #1047 - Shannon Gilpin
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Howard: It is just a huge honor for me today to be podcast interviewing Shannon Gilpin. She's the chief marketing officer and co-founder of Nonnahs Marketing. Nonnahs is Shannon backward, and the other person and co-founder was her amazing father who's going to be the next mayor of Phoenix, Arizona. How cool is that?
Shannon: Yes, very cool.
Howard: Oh my gosh! I couldn't imagine having a dad that’s the mayor of Phoenix, Arizona. Shannon Gilpin is a co-founder and chief marketing officer of Nonnahs Marketing, a social media marketing agency located in Phoenix, Arizona. She started the company in 2013 as a freshman in college with her father, Moses. Shannon, specializes in portrait and branding photography, working with photographers such as Annie Leibovitz. Since then, they have grown the agency to serve over fifty professionals like dentists, lawyers, plastic surgeons through social media, content creation and management, Facebook advertising and photography.
Thank you so much for coming on the show.
Shannon: Thank you for having me.
Howard: She does over fifteen dental offices in my backyard. Two dentists like a mile up the street. You're amazing.
The problem we dentists have is we went to school for eight years because we want to do surgery on teeth, we want to do root canals, fillings and crowns, and then you graduate and they tell you, "Oh, you got to own a business too." And I'm like, "I don't own a business. I'm a dentist. I do surgery and operatory all day." But they can't do their root canals, fillings and crowns if they don't have patients.
Howard: And even though you have eight years of college and they’re a doctor, you have a degree in Digital Marketing from Arizona State University, which is the number one university in the universe and all the parallel universes too because that's where I went. It is. And I can say it profoundly because that school, when you went to the computer lab or say you had a problem with statistics and you go to the statistics deal, there'd be like twenty PhDs on standby. If you graduated from ASU and you don't know what you're doing, it's all you buddy.
Shannon: That's true.
Howard: The resources are incredible. But there was none of those classes in Dental school?
Howard: So, if a dentist just let you in, I know how my homies think, he's just going to say, “Shannon, I just want another ten patients a month.” Is that doable?
Shannon: Yeah, it's a social strategy. You got to come together and have a digital marketing strategy for what you're going to do. It's not just posting, it's not just boosting a post on Facebook to any audience. You have to be very specific in your social media marketing in how you create a strategy for that to serve your patient, to serve your audiences on social media. So absolutely, it's very possible. And with the right tools and with the right strategy, you can absolutely do it.
Howard: So your fifteen dental offices right here in Phoenix, my backyard, do they tell you, they want different strategies or did they all want the same strategies?
Shannon: Absolutely. So, part of their ownership is with a management company, but they're all individual offices. They all had their very own unique personas.
Howard: Do you mean, you're all part of a DSO or a parent company?
Shannon: Kind of. They have a management company that helps come in and…
Howard: What's the name of that management?
Shannon: Practice Strategies.
Howard: Practice Strategies?
Howard: Ryan, do I know them? Practice Strategies? So, find the link to Practice Strategies. And where's their corporate office at?
Shannon: I believe they're in Phoenix. They're kind of all over it because they serve, they have offices all over the valley, practices all over the valley, so they're all over. But each of those dental offices are unique. They have very unique demographics.
Howard: Is the owner a woman hygienist?
Shannon: I don't believe she's hygienist. She's a, she's a woman. Her and her husband own it and they own a stake in each.
Howard: Yeah, you tell her I've been trying to get her on the show for… this is like a thousand and ten. She was the first person I contacted. She's a genius.
Shannon: She is, she is.
Howard: And that's amazing that out of everyone she got to picked, she picked you. I mean, this, I'm pretty sure, I think she's an RDH. I don't think she's a DDS. But she was a hygienist for like ten years and she thought, “These dentists don't know how to run a business.” So as a hygienist, Arizona, is one of the very few states where non-dentists can own a dental office.
Howard: So she just said, “Oh, I'm going to start my own. The dentist won't do what I say, I’m just going to…” But anyway, sorry to interrupt.
Shannon: Oh, no, no, no.
Howard: And you can slap me at any time, if I interrupt.
Shannon: No. But because of this, all of these dentist offices are unique in their demographics and in their clientele, some are in areas that cater to an older generation, in a retirement community, some are in Ahwatukee and they cater to young families. So, with that, we have very specific strategies for each office, different content that we create, different ways we go about it. So, it is unique in that respect. It's not just copy and paste all of them. We've developed strategies for each of them.
Howard: So, the difference between me and you, since you're actually younger than three of my children, you know, my generation came from phonebook, direct mail. Your generation came from Facebook and Instagram and all that kind of stuff like that, when you do your marketing, is it all just new age, digital marketing? Do you even believe in direct mail? I mean, I know the yellow page is dead, I don’t see the yellow pages.
Shannon: Right. I've seen the mailers work in respects, but when you look at it now, the seven billion people in the world, two billion active users on social media every day. And that is just something right there. I heard back in 2007 when social media started coming around - it’s just a fad, it's just another thing the younger generation will use, but it's now become very strong business tool that even the older generations are going towards. Especially, Facebook. It is attracting a much larger older demographic than Instagram and all of that.
Howard: So, the owner of Facebook is Mark Zuckerberg, and his dad is a dentist.
Shannon: I didn't know that?
Howard: Yeah, he's sat in that chair three different times.
Howard: And one time he brought… we're both bald dentists and we both have four kids. The only difference is his son started Facebook and my son is currently serving prison time for a bad Facebook ad. No, I’m just kidding. But he is, his name's Ed Zuckerberg.
Howard: But that's amazing because Facebook has more people than all the population of the Southern Hemisphere plus India. I think, it has more users than Christianity. So, Mark Zuckerberg is literally the CEO of the Southern Hemisphere. I mean, it's a new deal.
Howard: Yeah. Do you think this scandal stuff is going to…? I mean, I haven't…
Shannon: Yeah, you know, I watched the testimony and all of that and often times, the questions were interesting. I feel like they didn't know when they’re asking him questions. It wasn't really relevant, but one of the big takeaways I got from his testimony, in specific to targeting and the type of information they have on you, is when you have anything you subscribed to, whether it’d be TV, whether it’d be podcasts, whether it’d be social media, you’re paying in some way, whether it's monetary, whether it's through ads, and with the targeting information they have, they really want to give you the best ads that are relevant to you.
So, I hope, coming out of this, I think they may be a little bit stricter with data here and there, how they give it. But I hope that they still allow this targeting information because otherwise you're just going to start seeing ads because you still have to pay for Facebook in some way, that's how they make their money. But you'll start seeing ads that aren't relevant. And I think it's really important to be specific with your targeting and put it in front of the people that are going to want to see it and are going to benefit from it.
Howard: Yeah. When I watched those hearings, there's no way they could regulate Mark because you could just tell by the questions. So, those old… I mean, they were all like a bunch of seventy, eighty-year-old men that look like they were complaining in their lunch room at a nursing home. That they didn't have enough macaroni and cheese. That they're clueless. But I love it. And I talked to all four of my boys about it and we all agreed like, I love the fact that when I go to Google and I start typing in a name, Google knows I'm looking for a dentist. And the first deal is always DDS right after the name. And Greg, I will tell my son Greg and Eric, they loved the fact that they know everything about them. So, when they're doing weird searches.
In fact, Ryan, I think, it's funny when I see a joke on Reddit and I want to cut and paste that joke, I only get three words into the joke and it prompts up, oh, that joke is on Reddit. I mean, they know that I love Reddit. Three, four words into the joke, Google is like, I know what he wants to do. He wants to find that joke on Reddit.
So, back to the dentist wanting ten more new patients a month, do you mostly work with them on Facebook or do you do other forms of digital marketing?
Shannon: We focus on social media and I think it's important when you start developing a social media strategy as a dentist practice, you look at your patient demographic. If those are the patients that you want, if you want to attract a different audience. And then from there, I think, it's important to look at where they're living on social media, whether that’d be Facebook, whether that’d be Instagram or whether that’d be Twitter. If you're looking to attract an older generation, even younger generations are still present on Facebook, but Facebook is where you go to get that older demographic. Whereas if you're looking to target…
Howard: First of all, what’s your definition of older? And I want to warn you, I'm fifty-five. So, it’d better be over fifty-five.
Shannon: It’d be better be over fifty-five?
Howard: Yeah, otherwise you’re going to call me an old man.
Shannon: No, no, no, no.
Howard: I’m already short, fat and bald. Don't call me old.
Shannon: I wouldn't say. I mean, I still think, you know, I'm not saying older but sixty-five plus are becoming very active on Facebook.
Howard: Really? I wouldn't have thought that. So, if you do a lot of implants and dentures, and partials, and you want grandma and grandpa, you're saying grandma and grandpa are on Facebook?
Shannon: They are. My grandma is super active on Facebook. It's amazing! They're becoming much more active but there still is that generation of my age and you know, thirty-five to fifty-five, very active on Facebook as well.
Howard: So, Facebook is all over, and is that why Mark bought Instagram?
Howard: Because the rumor is that when little kids notice that their grandmother was on Facebook, that they all jumped off and went to Instagram?
Shannon: It's partially because of that, but then that's where the younger generation lives. And mainly, predominantly, females live on Instagram too.
Howard: Instagram is more female?
Shannon: It's more female.
Howard: But do you know the percent?
Shannon: I think it's like... it's not by much. It's probably, I think, it's like fifty-five or sixty-five are female, but on the other hand, Twitter is predominantly male. Again, not by much. I think, it's like fifty. It's like not big differences in the numbers.
Howard: But YouTube is the most male?
Shannon: Yes, yes, it is.
Howard: How male have you heard YouTube is?
Shannon: Oh, again, I think, it's like sixty-five to seventy. It is predominantly male, so those two, and Twitter is drifting to be more of a news based platform. They even changed their categories in the app store. It's not social media, it's news. So, they're trying to become more of a news based platform.
So it is really important when you're developing a social strategy to look at your patient.
Howard: Did you say it's a news platform or a fake news platform? What percent of it is fake news?
I'm literally ... I've read some really shocking things about those news stories that something like over 80% of all people who forwarded a news article on social media, never even click through to read it.
Shannon: Yeah. They...
Howard: So, they’re just clickbait headlines.
Shannon: A lot of it is clickbait headlines. But you have to be careful again, when creating content ads, that you share headlines that aren't clickbait. But there is a lot of clickbait and you know, there's like the Onion and those satire type of articles, that's very present on Twitter as well but there are a lot of, you know, when you look at your top trending hashtag, top trending news stories, there's a lot of credible news sources on there sharing their news.
Howard: Yeah, well, I really like Twitter. And then finally, The Wall Street is like in and out. It's finally the stock’s (Inaudible: 13.00). I'm making out like forty-one to twenty, and I think it's all back of their IPO price.
You see, I have a different dental office because I love being a general family dentist because I wouldn’t want to do root canals all day or just kids all day. So, if someone just said, I don't want a target, I just want more people. I mean, I look at it as an emergency room, I don't care if it's a crying kid, dad with a toothache, grandma broke her denture. But list these social media ones that are best return of investment to lower, and then where you draw the line that you don't go underneath the line?
Shannon: I would say for dentist offices, Facebook, definitely.
Howard: That’s number one.
Shannon: I would say that that's number one because you have so much you can do with it, because they own Instagram, because they own Messenger and WhatsApp. There's so many other different platforms that they own. I would say, Facebook.
I would say Instagram as well, but one not to forget about is LinkedIn. LinkedIn, is growing a lot in regards to social content and the people present on there. Looking at the content, news articles, videos, all of that, and you can now advertise on LinkedIn too. You know, doing specific targeted ads and what not. So, LinkedIn's growing as a credible source, as a social media platform. And I definitely think it's good to be on there as a professional office.
Howard: Well, you know, the best thing about being fifty-five, is you really don’t see anything new. You've seen every rodeo once or twice.
Howard: Like, I lived through the ‘94 to March of 2000, bubble market, then it popped, and now we're back. Now, it's 2018. We're right back there. But in the 2004 bubble, it was Microsoft because Microsoft bought LinkedIn, and it bought Skype. But back in ‘94 and 2000 it was Microsoft, Intel, Dell and Cisco, and then it all imploded. So, now we're back with the thing, Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Netflix. Microsoft, is the only one that's in the second bubble. And whereas, basically, Apple, only has one revenue stream selling hardware. Facebook, only has one revenue stream selling ads. Google and YouTube only have one revenue stream selling ads. Amazon, has two, cloud storage and their retail business. But Microsoft has like seven. And I noticed, ever since they bought Skype and ever since they bought LinkedIn, it's getting better, and better, and better, better, better. And what I like about LinkedIn is, everybody on LinkedIn has a job and has dental benefits. You know, what I mean?
Shannon: Yes, yes.
Howard: I mean, everybody that's ever come in from LinkedIn works for Intel, Boeing, they all have great jobs with great benefits.
Shannon: Exactly. And that's why it’s a social media platform not to discredit. You should absolutely keep that in mind when you're doing social media marketing.
But again, depending on family practice, you want to attract all. I think, that's a great place because again, people have jobs there. Facebook, is where everybody kind of lives. But moms, Instagram, and I would definitely use those three together, developed a social…
Howard: Those three? Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn?
Shannon: I would focus on those, initially. YouTube is a great platform, especially if you're creating consistent content for YouTube and you're sharing it. You know, Google has the algorithm to push it up and YouTube is a great, great platform. But the only thing is, I find hard sometimes, these dentist offices don't have… It's not that they don't have the time to market on it because if they hire an agency or whatever it may be, but you need that dentist to sit down and film something, and oftentimes they don't want to or they say they don't have the time.
So, I find it sometimes a little more difficult, but it is a platform that I definitely suggest. It’s just harder to create content for.
Howard: So, you can't get into Dental school, Med school or Law school unless you're an introvert geek, you sat in the library for eight years. So, a lot of my friends, they actually cringe at drawing attention to themselves.
Howard: So, when they sit there and say, “Oh, you should take a selfie and post it there.” It’s like, “Yeah, I shouldn’t sit right.” You know what I mean?
Howard: They’re the… I don't know where Kim Kardashian is but dentists and even lawyers would be the exact opposite of what is it? Kanye West or…?
Shannon: Kanye West, yeah.
Howard: Kanye West, yeah. They just don't like to draw attention themselves.
Shannon. No. And they really don't. And that's why even talking about photography and branding photography with the dentist when I go in, I try to focus on them doing what they do best. So, I like to go in and take photos of them working. In that way they don't have to pose or do anything like that. And you can really capture them in their landscape, in their environment.
But it is. I mean, they definitely cringe if I asked them to do a tip video. And that's why I like to include other parts of the team in the office, whether it be the hygienists, the dental assistants, everybody, because you're seeing a lot of them too. As patients, when you come in, it's not just a doctor. So, that's one of the things I suggest, if you have a problem being in front of the camera, use other parts of your team, but also understand that it's great to show your face because your patients want to see you. They really do.
Howard: Now, she made a landing page just for this podcast. It's http://dentist.nonnahsmarketing.com. So, Nonnahs is Shannon backwards, which is so funny when I saw it because you know, the irs staff and all that said, “Oh, you got to separate your practice from the building.” Then I said, “What should we name the real estate company to hold your dental office?” I said, “Farran backwards.” So it's Narraf. So, we both came to the same conclusion.
Howard: So it's http://dentist.nonnahsmarketing.com. Okay, what are my homies going to find if they go to, dentist.nonnahsmarketing.com?
Shannon: So, we have a special offer for them, for the listeners of dentistry uncensored, we offer content creation and content management on social platforms for $700 a month, but we're offering a 30% discount for your listeners. I'm thanking them for watching me here today with you and I can go into the details that we really develop a strategy for them on their social media, start creating content, personalized content for them, and have a strategy to share it and manage it in a way that will get them seen and have a digital presence.
Howard: So, instead of $700 a month, it's $500 a month?
Howard: Now, does that include buying Facebook ads or Google ads?
Shannon: No, no, that's separate. So, if they're interested in ads, we do it differently. We have an ads management setup. So, when I do my Facebook ads, again, you have to have a strategy when you're doing Facebook ads. I see people just boost post and boost content. That's not a strategy. That's not targeting people well. So, with that, we develop a funnel which includes ads, landing pages, email templates. It's really developed to help them take those individuals from awareness set to a purchase set, pushing them down that funnel.
Howard: Okay. So, you said ads, landing pages and awareness, the funnel going down into what? What’s the option of awareness? What comes out of awareness?
Shannon: Yeah. And the awareness that we have ad set up.
Howard: Okay, I got one question first. What do you think is better? Getting organic growth or buying ads? Earning it or buying it?
Shannon: Well, I think, they're hand in hand. If people are seeing your ads and they go to your social accounts and you don't have anything, social media is not seen as a form of credibility. People go to your social accounts to check you out prior to purchasing anything. 41% of consumers engage with your social account in some way prior to purchasing.
Howard: So, what percent?
Howard: 41% do what?
Shannon: They see your account, they see your social media prior to purchasing. They check it out. They've engaged. You've had an ad so they're seeing your brand consistently prior to purchasing. And it's a way for them to see that you're a credible business people. People like to check it out, whether it’d be from Yelp to Facebook. But it's definitely a hand in hand thing. I suggest, organic content and ads. It really depends.
If you have organic content going out consistently, you know, have somebody in your office and office manager do it, I would suggest ads as a settlement. But if you don't have either, I definitely suggest doing them both.
Howard: You know, it's funny, I just read a deal on, there's one of my heroes, every year, he puts out a list of the ten companies he thinks are going to go out of business, for next year, he picked Yelp.
Howard: We found the list and he started going through the burn rate and then cash rate. And what's funny is when you go on Dentaltown, which, thanks for joining Dentaltown.
Shannon: Yes, yes, I did.
Howard: It's funny because if you do a search for Yelp, every thread on Yelp is, it's all negative.
Shannon: Well, yeah.
Howard: I don't think I ever met a dentist who said, “I really like Yelp.”
Shannon: Well, Yelp’s algorithm is... we've struggled with it for a long time with our customers because with Facebook and other platforms where they have reviews, you can manage your reputation.
Howard: Yeah. But I've never read anybody complain about a Facebook review or Google review, but there's a thousand complaints about Yelp reviews.
Shannon: Well, because Yelp, so let’s say, you have a patient and you say, “Go leave me a Yelp review.” If they've never been on Yelp before, the likelihood that their good review is going to show up, is slim to none. Whereas, those active Yelp users that really liked to leave negative reviews, it's going to show up. And so most times you see the negative reviews more so than others. And their algorithm is just all messed up. They really should work on it, but I could see them going out of business.
Howard: Hopefully, they’ll go out of business.
Howard: We can all cross our fingers, say a prayer. Okay, so the credibility is also, I hear them calling that social proof?
Shannon: Social proof, yes.
Howard: So, that was the one thing that I'm- So, Ed Zuckerberg, whose son is Mark Zuckerberg, one of the things we always talk about is in healthcare, it's like 93% of all the appointments are made by mom. Dad, I mean, when dad is coming out, if you say, “Hey, I'm doing your daughter's insurance form, do you know her birthday?” “No idea.” It’s like, “Really? You don't know your daughter’s birthday? What about her social security number?” And mom just, birthday, social security number, insurance number. And I mean, what? Half the kids are raised without a dad?
Howard: So, we always want to target mom and Ed said, the most important thing is when they come in, try to get mom to check in on Facebook because then all of her women friends say, “Oh, Amy's going to this dentist.” And that's a social proof.
Shannon: That’s a social proof leaving. If they’re leaving their reviews on Facebook, take advantage of whatever social proof you can get because people will see their peers on Facebook, see that you trust them. And that's a great way of getting clients. I think, it was 90% of referrals, social proof referrals on social media converted. So when you…
Shannon: It was 90%. 90% of people sharing, social proof, whatever. If reviews, you know, checking in, converted into referrals. So, when people see that you're sharing, you know, you trust this dentist offices, businesses brand, that means I must trust it too because you're my friend, you're my peer and you're making a point of sharing it with us.
So, I always suggest checking and I always suggest having an offer too. You can incentivize it a little bit because people…
Howard: Incentivize them to leave a review?
Shannon: To leave a review.
Howard: On Facebook or Google? Which one’s more valuable?
Shannon: I would suggest both. Google's a powerhouse. People go to Google and they search things. But Facebook is too, because again, like I said, they're using social media as a credibility forum. And with that, you can't delete reviews, you can't change them. So, those are the real reviews you see on Facebook. And all of my businesses have five-star review, four-star review maybe, but they're, all- those are real reviews. So, I would suggest, try to get both.
Howard: Google and Facebook?
Howard: Well, you know, dentistry is a game of trust just like, I grew up with five sisters. I played Barbie dolls until I was twelve. I don't know what a spark plug looks like. I remember one time this guy was saying, “Do you hear that? That's your lifters.” To this day, I don't know what a lifter is. So, when my engine light comes on for me, it's an idiot light.
Shannon: Yeah, no.
Howard: If the guy comes out and says, “You need a new battery.” I believe him. I mean, all right, it's all about trust. And when the air conditioner guy comes here and he says, you know, you're hoping it's a shot of Freon. And he says, “No, you need a new aircon.” It's a game of trust.
Howard: So, when the dentist tells you, you have four cavities, how would you know?
Shannon: You trust them.
Howard: So, there is the reviews, it helps with the game of trust.
Shannon: It does, it does. Because dentistry, and people are scared to go to the dentist. We deal with that a lot, and they're worried about costs and everything. So, when you see those reviews, those positive reviews that this is a trusted dentist, this dentist is going to treat me like family and take care of me, that's important to them.
Howard: You just mentioned fear. I got some good news for you guys. I was talking to an expert on this and the silent generation before us, their fear for the dentistry was off the charts. I mean, when I got out of school thirty years ago, sometimes, grandma and grandpa would just be shivering in the chair. The baby boomers, half, are scared. But it's amazing. The fear among millennials to the dentist has plummeted because all they knew was, you know, they had nitrous oxide and this is like, they never… Like my mom and her brothers back then in the day, they didn't- their teeth pulled without anesthetic.
Shannon: Oh my God.
Howard: So, it was, you know?
Shannon: That’s a fear, yeah.
Howard: So, it's really plummeting down, but scare of cost is still huge.
Shannon: Yeah, it is. It really isn’t. So, I mean, it's having that trusted dentist that’s not going to swindle you is important, and social proof is one way of getting that out there.
Howard: So what are you doing for these dentists in Phoenix? What are you doing for them?
Shannon: So, we do social mainly, social content and creation. So, organic content. We also do Facebook ads and I do branding photography for them as well.
Howard: What does branding photography mean?
Shannon: So, that can be a variety of things but what I like to do is, I go into their office, I take photos of their team, I take photos of them working with patients, performing the treatments that they want to highlight. I call it personalized stock photos basically. So, instead of having to use photos you find on the internet, you know, it's really a way of putting the human face on social media that this is my hygienist and this is really high quality photo of them working. And you can use brand stock photos for anything. You can create graphics with them, you can do videos, but I think it's really important because I think it's like 70% of people engage better. Not, I mean, obviously, you need to have photos and videos in your social media. That is just one thing people are not going to engage with just text, they won't.
And so you have to have photos, but then 70% of those photos with a human face that you recognize, get higher engagement rates. So, that's what I like to do for branding photography, is go in and show the hygienists, show the dentist, in that way people become more familiar with them, more familiar with their brand and them as a person rather than just some stock dentist.
Howard: So, what I do is, I just go to Bradpitt.com and I just use Brad's pictures.
Shannon: There you go.
Howard: Do you recommend that? And then people come in and say, “Dude, what happened? Did you fall out of a car?
Shannon: It's definitely a way to attract moms.
Howard: It’s definitely a way to attract moms. So, text would be the lowest engagement, photos would be better and videos would be the best?
Howard: And do you do videos too?
Shannon: Yes. So, we go in and get videos of dentist working. We'll get videos like an office tour. It really depends on the campaign and what we're focusing on in that month or that week, whatever it may be. But we take photos very specifically. It's not just we go in and take photos.
So, there's always a specific reason, but we do do videos as well. And videos are going nowhere. They get the highest engagement, people have short attention spans and so when they're scrolling through a feed, if they see something that moves, kind of like the squirrel thing, they'll stop and watch.
So, I highly suggest if you can take videos, even if it's on your iPhone. And even with live video, how you mentioned dentists are afraid of talking and being in front of the video.
I was at one of our offices the other day and I mentioned to the dentist, “If you guys have a chance to do a treatment coming up for live video, I'd be happy to send out for some tips and how to do that.” And he was really excited about it just because it beats the algorithm on Facebook. It will always be at the top of the newsfeed. It'll show it to all of your audience because Facebook wants live video to be the next big thing. So if you can do video, do it.
Howard: So, how long do you think is the optimal length of a video?
Shannon: It used to be short because we have a short attention span. But now, it's growing to be a few different things. So, there is your Instagram stories or Snapchat. That's really short and it's something that you can just throw out there really quick. There’s a longer, like a live video, which is kind of, that can be whatever length in time. Generally, live videos go for.... I mean, some people do them for hours if they're doing long things, but you know, 10 minutes. But they say, the longer videos, probably like three to five minutes, that's what's doing better now because people are…
Howard: Three to five minutes?
Shannon: I'd say three to five minutes. So, it used to be like 30 seconds. That was your optimal time. But now, people are watching these longer videos because it's supplemented by live videos, by Instagram stories, by Facebook stories now. So, having both of those, using both of those in tandem, it’s going to be beneficial.
Howard: Now, if you say, you did a live video, as soon as you’re done with live video, is it gone or does it archive?
Shannon: No. It saves.
Howard: It saves?
Shannon: Yeah, it's on there. But what I suggest and what I told my dentist the other day, when you're filming live videos, film on airplane mode, in that way, it's still going to be a live video, but you can watch it prior to going live. Just in case you said anything that you didn't want to say or whatever, because live video is often, you're so caught up in the moment, caught up in what you're doing, caught up in people commenting and watching that you can make a mistake. So, I suggest putting it on airplane mode prior to doing it.
Howard: We should’ve live video this.
Shannon: I know, right? I have no idea.
Howard: We should've done a live video. And so, for some you mentioned Snapchat, do you think snap is something dentists should get involved in or…?
Shannon: Snapchat, I think, initially, when I started working with dentists, I wanted it because Snapchat was big, but because of their big algorithm change, Instagram stories have taken over especially with my generation, they are all about Instagram stories right now. Snapchat is not doing so well, so I don't suggest using Snapchat. It's another way to have those short videos, but I don't know how much longer Snapchat's going to be around.
Howard: Well, rumor has it, I won’t say where it came from, that the whole mission of Instagram right now is to kill Snapchat. I mean, it’s like the Ali, Frazier fight and they're going out toe to toe there. I've heard that Facebook has implemented there any unique things to Snapchat. But you keep saying Snapchat stories?
Shannon: So, Instagram stories are...
Howard: Instagram stories, what's an Instagram story?
Shannon: So, on the top of your newsfeed on Instagram, there’s like a little circle and the people just post little videos or photos or boomerangs, but it's just a short little thing, yeah. So, those right there. So, if you click on like that, that's an Instagram story.
Howard: So, it's more than a post?
Shannon: It's more than a post. It's shorter and it goes away within…
Howard: Oh, it’s like a picture PowerPoint thing?
Shannon: But it can be video. Instagram stories have the capability to be live video too. It can be a boomerang, which is like this little gif. So, there's a lot of options for Instagram stories, but you can see the analytics on this.
Howard: Oh! It’s doing McCall dentures, my buddy McCall.
Shannon: But the thing is, Instagram stories are similar to what Snapchat is in itself. People will post little videos or photos that go away within 24 hours. It's the same thing just it’s called different.
Howard: So, is Instagram stories more engagement than just an Instagram post?
Shannon: It can be. People watch it like they watch Snapchat. It's replacing Snapchat in that respect. But what's cool about Instagram stories, is you can tag locations, tag people, tag hashtags, and so that increases the visibility of that story and increases the chance that new individuals and new audience will see it.
Howard: Interesting. And so, you talked about organic and Facebook ads and Google ads go hand in hand, if someone's paying you $500 a month to manage the account and do the organic, how much, do you recommend on a budget for buying ads?
Shannon: For buying ads, and how I would start with that is you're going to have your ads.
Howard: And you do that, do they give you the money then you buy them for them?
Shannon: Uhm-hmm, and it depends, when you're targeting, there's so many options with Facebook ads targeting, and so many options for audiences and all of that. I would start small, test your audiences, have A/B testing, all of that. But really, once you have a well-performing ad, an ad funnel, you can invest as much money as you want because you'll get more leads, more clicks, whatever it may be, but I always suggest to start small and get bigger as your ads are performing better and they're more relevant to your audience.
Howard: Dentists, I notice, I went to… you know, we use on dental ads, the computerized bulletin board service which started in 1970, which all the scientist used. So, if you wonder what the science is using and invented the internet and all that stuff, it's all the computerized bulletin board system and forums. The endless newsfeed that started with emails and then went to Myspace, Friendster, Twitter, Instagram.
That's fun, it's entertaining. It's like scrolling through TV, but you can't learn how to do a root canal or learn how to do social media. But I noticed one reoccurring thing with dentists on the social media. So, one of the categories is marketing and the overall marketing, one of them is website, one of them is on social media. When they get a bad review, oh my god, it's like they mentally implode and I'm like, “Dude, at my Thanksgiving family dinner, half of the family is crazy.” I mean, I just tell them, “Picture your craziest uncle saying it.”
So, do you ever have to walk them off the ledge or did they call you up and “I'm ready to jump,” or how do you handle that?
Shannon: Luckily, our dentists, we have a wonderful management team that we work together with, that they help with that, but they handle. I mean, they take care of connecting with the clients, with the patients, but they do. Some of these patients are crazy. We've had instances where patients would create new Facebook accounts because we blocked them and they would leave new negative reviews. So, people are crazy and they will, if they're mad, they'll go out of their way too.
Howard: At least 20% of the planet is completely crazy. And they're your own family, they’re your own, you know?
Shannon: Right. But what I would suggest, if you don't have a management team in place to help take care of that or a social media team, make sure that you're monitoring it, and make sure you reach out to them. I would suggest never deleting the reviews because that shows up bad on your part. That shows that you're hiding something. So, always reach out to them and make sure it's visible and take care of it as much as you can, and once you've handled the situation, ask them to either update their review or change it, whatever it may be. But I would never delete it or try to hide it because that just shows that you're not trustworthy. And that's…
Howard: Well, a lot of them question… I don't know how to say it. I'm trying to say this as rated PG. My dad used to always say, “Mr. Poop. It'll make it stink.” So, if I get a better review, I don't reply or say anything. Other people try to go in and they explain everything, and then one dentist got sued because he started explaining her treatment and then he got flagged for a hip of deal.
Shannon: Yeah, no explaining, no explaining to the audience what you've done. Reach out to the patient, that you don't have to explain yourself on social media. You want to make that connection with the patient and handle it through them, handle it discreetly, but you don't want to hide anything.
Howard: Yeah. And don't take it so personal, just don't take it so personal. And also, I've seen some vicious attacks, locally. When I talked to the dentist, it's like she wanted a refund, and he didn't give her a refund. So now, she's got a crazy lady, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you know what? Walmart, Walmart, 7% returns.
Howard: And there's not a dentist in America that has 1% returns. And I even had- you know, I've been doing this thirty years. I had a man one time, he said it was the worst dentures he’d ever had in his life, he want his money back. And I said, “Okay, well, here’s the check but give me my dentures back.” “Oh, no.” And he was wearing them. I'm like, okay, so the worst dentures, but I noticed that your old dentures are not in your mouth. Those are the dentures I made and you want your money back.
But my walnut brain goes to this guy, still alive, in fact, I saw him at Safeway not too long ago. I think, he's like ninety years old. I don't want some guy, thirty years living five blocks on my office telling everybody that I made the work, you know, I mean, so I think, a lot of this would be (inaudible 40:30) by just, they want a refund, they want a refund. And Walmart, no questions asked warranty. And do you know who invented that? His wife, Helen. They were in a small town, Bentonville, Arkansas. And they got back from church and Helen said, “Yeah, the lady at church I talked to in the parking lot and she bought a pair of shoes that you're dealing, the heel fell off, and she took it back there, and you said it wasn't your deal. You know what? It is a family five, they're never going back to you.” So, it went from five thousand people to four thousand nine hundred and ninety-five, and Sam said, “Well, it's not my problem.” And Helen said, “It's your problem.”
So, he was the guy who pushed back to no questions asked warranty. And then when the guy came back to sell them ten new pair of shoes, he said, “Oh, by the way, this one has…” So, he pushed the warranty up the supply chain, which then turn to quality because once the manufacturer realize you send someone a defective deal, they're going to send it back. And rework is twice the cost of original work.
So, yeah. So, I think, that they gave more refunds and now I know a friend who's just sick because he didn't refund, you know, he got into this fight, well, then she called the Arizona State Board. Yeah, Arizona State Board of Dental Examiners. Sometimes they hire an attorney. He's going to have to block off the day. He's like, all worked up and (inaudible 41:44) and it’s like, “Dude, you could have just given her her money back. And look at yourself? You're not happy, you’re miserable and financially, when it's all over, he’s going to…
Shannon: Oh, it cost more.
Howard: Oh yeah, absolutely. So, crazy, crazy, crazy. So, is all of what you do, how is that affected by their website? Are you trying to drive people through social media to his website? Do you evaluate their website?
Shannon: We do, and luckily, the practices we work with, we worked very closely with the web designer. But we do evaluate the website. That's one of the services we offer. We can create websites, but most of the time we come in and they have a website in place. We give suggestions based on what would be better. We would love to have each practice have a blog and have content going out from that because when we link it back, you know, when we're posting articles on tips or health tips for the summer or how to take care of your braces or anything like that, we would love to push them back to their website. But oftentimes, they don't have a blog, they claimed that they don't have the time. So, we do evaluate websites. We do suggest changes to optimize it better because it's beneficial. We're always linking any of the posts back to the website.
Howard: And what if my homies want to talk to you? What is the best way to contact you?
Shannon: Oh, you can email me at Shannon@nonnahsmarketing.com. That's the best way.
Howard: Shannon@Nonnahsmarketing.com and Nonnahs is just Shannon backward?
Shannon: Right. So, if you can't spell Nonnahs, if you could spell Shannon, you can.
Howard: You can spell Shannon, S-H-A-N-N-O-N @nonnahsmarketing.com. And when most people call you- Oh, back to the blog, you said videos, three to five minutes, how many words should a blog be, how many paragraphs, how long should it take to read?
Shannon: I would say three hundred to five hundred words. Include photos if you can. If you're doing like a tip blog posts, just break it up by numbers or bullet points, something easy to read, people can read it quickly, but it gets the point across and at the bottom of the blog post, you know, if you're interested in learning more, come visit us or call us today or anything like that. So, it's always linking it back to you.
Howard: Okay. I know my homies; I've been a dentist for thirty years. I know dentists, these guys were at the Arizona state dental convention, anytime over the last thirty years, probably five, ten years ago, they walked by a booth, they say, “Give me your credit card, give me five grand and I will build you a website.” And they haven't even looked at their website hence.
I mean, when I go to the dentist’s websites, I go to them every day because when they send me an email, you know, they'll send me this email. They'll say, “Thanks, Larry.” And I'm like, “Oh, are you the only Larry on earth?” But if you see like, Larry@smileytooth.com, then I'll go take the smileytooth, www… And I’ll look at it. If I hit the contact and reply to the contact, half of the time, it doesn't even work.
Howard: I would say, a quarter of the time, they don't even have a photo. And so, I would suggest that, you know, when we were little, this was the yellow pages. I mean, ask yourself, when is the last time you even looked at your own website? I remember when the iPhone came out and all these dentists had flash pictures and all that, and they didn't even know on the iPhone that those are just black squares.
Shannon: Right. Well, and then if your website isn’t optimized mobily, Google pushes it down in rankings now. It flags it. So, having a mobile optimized website that works on your phone is so important.
Howard: And another thing I'll say, I believe there's, mom makes all the appointments and I can tell you at fifty-five, it is much harder to see than at forty-five. So, when they're doing their websites, I mean, so if you're trying to get grandma and grandpa, and they're on Facebook, and you want dentures and implants, whatever, there are websites where you have to take your thumbs and pull everything apart just to read. If you want implants, what does your website look like when grandma and grandpa…? I mean, I have the largest iPhone made plus readers and have these dental websites, you’re still using your thumbs to pull it apart.
So, lately, the boys, they'll send me a joke. It will be like a square meme and I'll have four things, just instant delete. I mean, I can read one square with one joke. I can't read your little four panel thing. So, I mean, it's really important. So, if you're trying to get those implant cases, implant supported larger print.
Shannon: Larger print, photos with lots of color, you know?
Howard: Yeah. So, you talked about Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, doing blogs, photography, what other questions was I'm not smart enough to ask?
Shannon: I think, you covered a lot of it. I think, the next step is thinking of the future of social media, where it's going to go. And how I mentioned before, videos are huge and they're not going away. People are going to continually use them, but the other things that is big armed like messenger bots.
So, messenger is owned by Facebook and you know, to send a quick way to instant message, but now, what companies and brands are doing, is I relate it to an email subscriber list. So, as soon as you opt into this messenger by just responding to it, whether it's an ad or whatever, you're now on their subscription list so they can send out dental tips every day or you can reach out to these people. So, you're constantly top of mind, and that is becoming really big with Facebook right now. They're really promoting it and you can set a whole funnel to have these messages go out every day and have very significant call to actions.
And then, how we mentioned mobile, mobile is 80% of users are looking at websites or are on Facebook, mainly on Facebook or any social media platform on their phone. So, if you do not have content or websites mobily optimized, definitely fixed that because people won't look at it.
Howard: If you had only $1 to spend on digital ads, and you had to split it between Facebook and Google, how would you split it?
Shannon: I would split it on Facebook. I think I…
Howard: What percent would you put on Facebook? What percent would you do with Google ads?
Shannon: No. I mean, so we personally don't do Google SEO and that type of stuff. So, I know Facebook better so I would put a larger percentage towards Facebook because of the targeting. It's crazy and you know, you can do targeting based on demographics, based on jobs, based on where they live, all of that. But you can also do is, custom audiences. So, you can take your patient list, export it, and then upload the Excel into Facebook, and you can send an ad to them to remind them to schedule their bi annual dental cleaning. But you can also create lookalike audiences. So, say it's, you have your customer list and then create an audience with all similar interests all based in the same location.
So, I think the targeting and the benefits of that on Facebook are immense and the data they have. So, I would suggest Facebook. That's just what I know, what I live and breathe every single day. So, I would suggest that.
Howard: You know, it's changing times. I mean, when I was little, if you got caught with a beer and Jack Daniels, you're okay. But with weed, you went to jail. And right now, with advertising, you know, this podcast has no boundaries like, Canada can't do half of what we do. And Hong Kong, Romania, if they did anything you were talking about, they'd lose their license.
Howard: So, marketing and advertising is so taboo. I mean, when I got here thirty years ago, I took a full page ad in the yellow pages and I was one of the early pioneers who went into a retail center instead of a medical dental building. And when I would go to dental meeting at age twenty-five, all the sixty-five year olds would say, “Are you that crazy man next to Safeway?” They go, “If you had cancer, would you go to the doctor next to Safeway or would you go to the hospital?” And I'm like, “Well, you know…” I mean, they just- and I get a free lunch from the director of the Arizona Dental Association, telling me that a full page ad just cheapens the image of dentistry.
So, it's kind of funny. Thirty years later that now, that's just now, they were mad at me for taking a full page ad in the yellow page, and now, the yellow page is gone. But knowing that it's still taboo, in so many countries, it's illegal that, you know, the older guys, it’s still taboo.
At what age do you start finding dentists more getting it with marketing Instagram? Like, none of my friends would know what Snapchat is or Instagram or…?
Shannon: Well, a lot of the dentists that we work with are younger. They're probably thirty-five to fifty and they all see the benefits. They really are excited when I come to the office, I'm there to take photos, I'm there to highlight certain things because they understand that that's where their audience and their patients are living on a day to day basis. Whether it's, they've realized that through experience or they hear it from everybody in their office. They're starting to get it more and more. They really are.
Howard: Yeah. And you know, patient flow equals cash flow and its kind of like a fireman. You know, what's weird about firemen is, in their heart, they want a big fire. They want to put out the big fire. Now, no one wants your house to be on fire, but if you want, you know, I mean, a fireman wants a fire, a policeman wants to chase a bad guy. I like emergencies. I like toothaches. I mean, you can't do what you do.
When I got out of school, thirty years ago, when you looked at overhead, it was 0% was marketing. And then fifteen years out, it was like 3% marketing. I'm amazed. The biggest offices I know, the big dogs, they're all spending 5 to 7% percent of collection on all of this. Look at the Ortho case. I mean, an invisalign case is sixty-five hundred. And what is the orthodontist profit margin? 50%?
So, they don't- they'd spend $500 all day long to get- If they knew every time they gave you $500, they get invisalign cases, they would go borrow a billion dollars. I mean, imagine at ASU football game. You could walk in that stadium. You're and orthodontist and they say, “well, you can buy any... Everyone here wants invisalign.” I mean, so it's the return of investment.
So, the first thing you need to know is what is your average new patient worth? Because in the endodontist office, it's sixty-five hundred. The average general dentist, it's the same as sixty-five hundred but spread out over five years. And then you also have to lay your conversion rate, like, what is your chance that if you get one person from the family, say, you get mom in that you can upgrade that to getting dad in and baby bear, mama bear, grandma bear.
So, if you don't know what your new patient average deal is, then you don't know what’s right for (Inaudible: 53.06). If you're paying, if you figure out that your Facebook marketing campaign costs you a $100 per head, that could be very different in a Medicaid clinic, where maybe their average new patient is only worth a hundred bucks. And versus an area where the average new patients worth- I think that the national average is right about, I think, it's three eighty-eight.
So, know your numbers. It was just an honor and a privilege that you came by the house today and I can vouch for my backyard, there's fifteen amazing dentists, great dentists, high end dentists. So she definitely knows dental. Thank you so much for coming by the house today.
Shannon: Thank you for having me. It's been wonderful.