Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

How to perform dentistry faster, easier, higher in quality and lower in cost. Subscribe to the podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dentistry-uncensored-with-howard-farran/id916907356

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Howard: It is just a huge honor today to be podcast interviewing three people that are very important to me one is Hollie Bryant we had her on the show episode 441 she's the owner of Bryant consultants as a dental office consultant and marketing firm located in Kingsport Tennessee she's an amazing dental office consultant she's great at marketing great at growing your picture but practice but she's great at something else the gentleman in the middle who looks like he graduated from dental school in 2013 but actually 2003 Dr. Kevin Martin DDS she's here today to talk about how to keep staying so looking young but the star of the show is well the other star of the show who wouldn't able to make it Ken Colebush the Henry Schein Rep from Tennessee who's a legendary in this story but the main show is a gentleman on the right the handsome bald guy Dr. David Guy DDS graduated from the University of Tennessee College of Dentistry in 1977 he has over 40 years experience in dentistry he was a solo practitioner for 34 years until this year back in February 13 2019 a man entered his dental office in Kingsport Tennessee and fatally shot his office manager the sheriff says Dr. Guy shielded someone with his body during the shooting and is a hero. Dr. David guy and Hollie Bryant are here to talk about the shooting back in February the journey of transition with his dental practice and where he is now this is a story that will touch your heart encourage you to get prepared for what life may throw your way and the success that has come from Dr. Guy surviving this horrific event by making some major life decisions the events that happened unraveled his practice and allowed the transition of a lifetime that took place in a matter of seven days the ability to pivot from tragedy and find out what he is really all about and what he's most passionate about and what he's gonna do now I got a start for the people who weren't reading this it was all over social media was all over dental town Dr. David Guy what happened?

David: Well like you said that's Mr. Weaver and his wife were estranged from each other and he just burst into the office early that morning without any warning and all we heard was a bunch of commotion behind us and that's when we saw what was going on he was yelling Kelly was saying don't let him take me and I stepped forward to talk to him and say you know you don't want to do this and so he had the gun in his hand and deep pointed directly at my face and said you want this I said no that's backed up and then it was a matter of just a few seconds he fired shots shot her in the head all my assistant Sabrina was trying to help Kelly get away they went to the floor he shot her twice again and then that's when I exited as fast as I could to call for hep a few minutes later while we were placing 911 call we heard three more shots and it turns out that my patient that I was treating at the time actually had a concealed carry permit he had his weapon on him and he permitted Mr. Weaver from hurting anyone else and that's when we came back he and I followed the SWAT team as it were behind him I didn't get along with him but I could hear all the action and apparently my patient Mr. seagroves was still holding the gun on Harry while he was on the ground and the police yelled at him but dropped his gun and he did and but he is hailed as a hero for sure he's the true hero of all the story.

Howard: So when something like that hits you I mean you can't just go back to work tomorrow morning and act like it was another day I mean that would just have to emotionally knock your breath away, how did that affect you?

David: Well the thing was that I was down to three days a week anyway, so that was a Wednesday I had Thursday off but I should go back into the office and try to make contact with my patients that were scheduled later next week and such and I spent a lot of time there just pondering those Thursday and Friday and that was when I got a message from Tim Martin DDS who happens to be Kevin's father on the 15th he sent me a text message or actually an email saying that he was shocked to hear what happened he was appalled by it and he couldn't imagine what I was going through but he said also that we just can't let you end your practice because of this incident so he said he'd help me in any way he possibly could and that was one of the things that gave me some instant hope.

Howard: It's also a time when you find out who your friends are I notice when you're rich and famous and you're you know selling out stadiums and you're famous athletes and all that stuff you're a hero but when your whole world collapse you're gonna see who your close friends did this is that described it?

David: Yes it's I was had a deluge of different people just calling or leaving messages and experience you know it's expressing their sorrow on there and their desire to be able to help including the director I was working on Thursdays and Fridays actually at a place called friends in need will retreat people with low income and the director called me actually Thursday two hours after the incident to ask me if I was okay he didn't know was my office for sure but I informed him that it was he said well then you won't be able to work on Thursday and I said that maybe I could you know.

Holli: He was in shock

David: I was shocked yeah I was in shock but turns out that he and quite a few other people just we're doing all they could see whatever you need let us know we will help you.

Howard: I'm gonna ask you this is dentistry uncensored and so I'm gonna ask you a tough question and if you don't want to answer just pass but you know when you meet people who met unbelievable events like this sometimes they the biggest part of it is they're trapped and the anger so so was anger a big part of overcoming or was it you're you know emotional or was anger a big part of the challenge of getting over this.

David: Anger was not part of it at that time I was focused on the idea that I've got to find a way to get back to work to take care of my patients and to make sure that my employees that were with me still had a job to do as well and so I was focused on that and trying to figure out how I was going to be able to do it.

Hollie: So to know David is to know that his heart is so big and I don't know if he has an angry bone in his body and you know Kelley was a longtime friend outside of work and Harry Weaver was thirty years of a friend for David and his family so you know this thing was so deep and it had so many levels to what it was the actual shooting itself but David did something really cool that instinct kicked in and without direction he put a voicemail on his phone at work to let everybody know that that they would take the next two weeks to figure out what the next step was but to hang with him and and then and he would keep everybody posted.

Howard: Well I guess what I meant by that the anger deal was like I had an office receptionist for 20 years and she used to work at Chase Bank but it got robbed and someone stuck a gun in her face and she could never enter that building again and then I had another patient where someone broke in her house and just stole jewelry and things like that but she could not enter that house again I mean it was a violation one was a workplace elation was a homebuyer so I was wondering like did you have staff that said I'm sorry but I can't work in this building again?

David: Well that was pretty evident after the after we got the dust kind of settled and uh I was thinking I guess I will go back in this space I'll clean it up I actually hired somebody to do the cleaning but I was sure about the third or fourth day this is not going to work for my staff or my patients it wouldn't be good for me I would try but I think it was quite obvious that I needed to find a change of venue one way or another.

Howard: So how long did it take you to decide that, this book the chapter is closed we're gonna leave this location and we're gonna move on how long did that take?

David: That was probably by 15th the end of the fifteenth two days later 48 hours I've gotten a letter from Kim I talked to other people and I said this can't this can't be the place I stay and the one good thing about it was the fact that I was on a month-to-month lease basis so I didn't have to worry about that if I decided to leave I just had to get out as quickly as possible.

Howard: Well you know as they always say that you know leaders are the ones that rise to the occasion and they say and at the Pentagon that the first casualty of war is always the battle plan and so I commend you that you were able to keep your head together and that within 48 hours you can make a long-term strategic decision because obviously many of these dentists listening this podcast that would not be the case.

Daivd: I want to say that one of the things that made it possible was the fact that I had discussed things with Ben Colbusthe situation that we had and I said I know I've got a big plans I got to do something and that's when Ben said well I've been on the phone or at least texting back and forth with this gal named Hollie Bryant and she may be able to be your best first step in making that come about and incidentally I had just some time during the day gotten a request to befriended by some party named Hollie Bryant and I said who the heck is Hollie Bryant and so anyway Ben answered that question for I me.

Howard: When I look at you and you look at me was your first thought is she has too much good hair on her head is that a red flag?

David: Well I didn't get to see her for several days to begin with the ball of fire when we talked on Wednesday the 20th this actually was this...

Howard: So Hollie all the dental offices that you've consulted with over the years have you I mean what could prepare you for a situation like this?

Hollie: I wasn't prepared I came in to just sit and talk to David and talk to Jane and hear their story about where they were on the 12th of February before the shooting and just get to know them as people and as friends and figure out what his what he wanted for his life way before the shooting and then after I sat with David and Jane on a Saturday we sat for hours just talking I was very honest I said I don't have a plan I don't know what the plan is and we'll pray about the plan but I got a lot of people want to help you like a lot of people and they David was like what are you talking about I said I've had people because they knew that I was from your area they wanted to know if there was something they could do to donate their time and I started naming today but a list of people that would help and give their time because remember there's a business that's still existing even though there's a two-week period of reprieve there was still insurance checks coming in money that needed to be put in claims that needed to go out accounts that needed to be monitored while we were a 34-year business that still had to run even though patients weren't walking in the door while we were figuring out where he's gonna go what kind of plan he was gonna have who would want to be a part of this and then at the end of that if it was gonna do it we would have to close up a 34-year business and we would have to create contracts there was just like a million layers to this so I just told him I said there's so many people that want to help Mary Beth Personís and the dental support specialties team they wanted to do all of his claims support for free and they weren't alone.

Howard: Was it Mary Beth's idea or was it her husband Joe's idea?

Hollie: It's probably Joe's

Howard: It's just he makes the best barbecue in the entire country, it's a better setting if we say it was Joe's idea not Mary Beth.

Hollie: It's probably Joe's idea and they were like whatever he needs tell me and then Tony Myers with the truth consulting he was like whatever document support for any kind of transition I've got you covered so I had all these people say and what do you need what do you need what he needs let me do something so I even had a branding company that said what can I do for him for his new brand I want to do it so a lot really cool people just stepping up to the plate to help so did I have a plan no prayed about the plan and and then I called Kevin and I said Kevin I'm in this thing knee-deep and this gentleman is full of life and amazing and his patient base is beautiful and there's something here I don't know what it is yet would you just sit down and talk to me and Kevin said he said I'll trust you Hollie I don't know either but he said I'll trust you so Kevin and I have been friends for probably what maybe a decade and he had multiple practices in the area and and he just was willing to talk about it and there was just a whole lot of pieces all fallen in a place that you couldn't deny it was the right series of decisions.

Howard: So David guy was friends with Tim Martin who is Kevin Martin's father?

Hollie: Yep they went to dental school together

Kevin: Well he graduated just before I got there.

Hollie: Oh he graduated just before Kevin or just before David got there.

Kevin: His sister from high school too.

Howard: You dated his sister from high school?

Kevin: No they went to camp together they were friends.

Howard: Oh friends, wow so did you I mean dentistry has a community doesn't it?

David: Yes

Hollie: It's a huge community it's a it's an amazing you know I screamed to my doctors about asset protection I screamed to doctors about staying involved in your study clubs because you need these people you need community you need a sense of belonging and you never know what life's gonna bring you right.

Haward: Well Kevin you being you know young enough to be a child, me and David do you think David's and your dad's generation of dentists do you think they had a tighter community than modern-day community or do you think it's the same because or do you think it's the same, do you think do you think what you saw was old school or do you think it still lives today in his new school?

Kevin: I think it's I mean I think nowadays what we're saying as you see is that community now is not getting together for an in-person meeting a lot of times it's all social media it's all you know internet internet interactions but you know like I said my dad practiced the industry for 40 years and retired a couple years ago but you know our advantage is that we live in a small community I grew up in this community my dad grew up in this community we've gone to church together the Dr. Guy for what

David: Since 86 at least

Kevin: For me so it was an easy decision one as a dental community to say we got help but I've known him for four years he's an excellent dentist you know he takes care of his patients I think one of the things that they didn't mention you know he was not going to brag I'm going to brag on so but you know after this happened you know he personally called all his patients too that were scheduled to reschedule and tell them and I don't think most of us would do that do that he was there every day after this happened at his office so it was an easy decision for us to say we'll do what we need to do to to help him and fortunately and you know like I said I've known Hollie for a long time I know she she gets it done and she gets it back quick but we have probably the biggest office in the area and we're able to accommodate that and it was a you know it was an easy decision that took very few seconds to say yeah well more than happy to have him not tell it's been one of the best decisions we've ever made because our staff loves our patients loving his patients alone and my dad retired a couple years ago and I tell him for a little while I was the old guy but now it's like bringing my dad back and he has to see us to take care of all the patients but it's great to have that generation of doctor back in the office that really knows how to take care of patients and cares for the patient so it's been a tragic thing for everybody but it's actually you know been a blessing for everybody as well.

Howard: You know every time I talk to a dental malpractice attorney they always say and the research is very clear it's the same dentists and physicians that keep getting all the claims and the reason the patient's called the malpractice attorney is because the dentist didn't call him dentist didn't return their phone I see it on dentaltown people will say oh I just got this letter from a patient should I call my dental malpractice first it's like you know you should call the patient first it was one of my first episodes but why I didn't get sued is um this guy was so upset I called his wife and his wife Sal Howard he's too mad never he won't come to the phone and I said well you're only one mile from my office and it's seven o'clock I'm going home can I stop by and she goes I would not recommend that I say okay I'll just be in the driveway for five minutes and I went there I park to drive five minutes I said sat in the car and he came out and we had a big whore anyway long story short you know he thought he thought he didn't have gum disease and he you know and all this story back but anyway the bottom line is they're all humans and you just need to talk and the thing I can't stand about social media is even in your own workplace you'll see an email going back four or five times you're like well one of you monkeys just stand up and walk to the other cubicle I mean why some things just deserve face-to-face and if you say you can't figure out a problem and you've emailed the guy five times and you've texted him four times and the guy is standing within a hundred feet of you you need to see a doctor I mean there's something seriously wrong with your walnut brain but so I always wonder if that's what I mean when I'm saying old-school as opposed to the new generation but I gotta say one thing for sure you know you always know when the Supreme Court is upset because they'll do like three cases in a row trying to school educate the people what they're trying to say and Harvard Business Review keeps coming out with studies saying that everything you say is the difference in boomers in millennial you do know there's no evidence for any of this so every time they take something they do the polling that is a survey and Millennials and you know they're the same views on religion politics everything I mean so we're supposed to not and we're not supposed to say you know if you say all people do one thing it's racist so you can't say all Irish bald guys are handsome because there might be one that's not I mean you just you just know no but so what so Hollie thanks for being us friends thanks for all your sleeves up so what was your first what what was your first decision planned well how did the decision tree look like what did you decide first and what did you do next?

Hollie: Well the first decision was to stay or go.

Howard: Stay or go?

Hollie: Stay in this building and make it work or go and he said I can't stay here my team can't stay here we can't stay here so that was number one was but I guess a little bit before that let me the prerequisite was are you done with dentistry because I couldn't imagine David being done with dentistry but David had to make that decision is this where you end because he's had a great career, 69?

David: 68

Howard: He's 68 years old?

Hollie: Yep

Daivd: I graduated dental school that year Kevin was born.

Howard: Oh my gosh 1977

Hollie: So I'm going to say that was probably the first decision was David does this does this tragedy does this tragedy make you want to want to be done, are you done.

Howard: and you're 68?

David: Yep I'm 68

Howard: You knew you had to keep going because mother Teresa was 69 when she won the Nobel Prize for her work so unless.

David: It never occurred to me about Mother Teresa

Howard: Yeah I lectured right up the street from her birthplace and I think it's Macedonia I think the country's name has changed a few times but so what made you decide that you weren't done because you had it easy out you got it easy out.

Hollie: Yeah that was tragedy I'm hanging it up I'm done I didn't wanted to be done but he had to decide that.

David: Well it was kind of like the same thing Tim said I couldn't let that incident be the instigating factor in quitting dentistry my own terms not somebody else.

Hollie: So he made that decision and then the next decision was stay or go do we clean this up because just so you know I'm sure you've watched every cop show there is they got to come in and collect the evidence so all the bullets that went off in the office during the shooting they had to go get them so they had a dig through the walls and get the bullets so there was lots of digging that had happened in the practice and then you know unfortunately like when blood and puddles of blood hit the floor and it soaks up in the drywall they got a cut all that out so it was a crime scene and I told David his patients didn't deserve to come back there and I don't think they could heal I don't think our community could heal if he went back there so at that point was when we started I started reaching out to find somebody who would want to buy the practice because it was a practice for sale so it wasn't just a goodwill thing there was a practice for sale so.

Howard: In Kingsport Tennessee?

Hollie: Yeah

Howard: but what's the population of that town?

Hollie: About 44,000

David: 50,000

Hollie: 50,000

Howard: So that's not so small that everyone knows everyone but the dentists would probably all know each other but no one wants...

Hollie: Right but East Tennessee is trees and mountains and you know if you want a banana republic you got to go like two hours away, it's not like I mean...

Howard: A banana republic you're not that close to Washington DC oh my gosh you're a lot farther than Washington DC in two hours how long does it take you to drive to the world's largest banana republic in Washington DC?

Hollie: 6 1/2 hours

Howard: Okay so you put the practice up for sale and were you thinking maybe a merger and acquisition someone that already had a practice would buy it up or some new graduate?

Hollie: Merger and acquisition that's the only thought I had was merger acquisition at this point like we had to go fast this was not...

Howard: Hollie why is Wall Street completely based on mergers and acquisitions and why does dentistry almost never utilize that tool and why was it your first thought I mean it's so counterintuitive in our solvent professional dentistry?

Hollie: That's common sense so I'm not a dentist so that's common sense for me for you guys, it's not common sense it's like who somebody you know merging with me but at that point we wouldn't have a location for someone to buy him so we really it was a patient base it was accounts receivable it was his goodwill it was him because I needed somebody about him look at him he I mean he sings going down the hallway.

Howard: Okay but if he sells to someone in Kingston they're not gonna want him in Kingston.

Hollie: Oh we wanted him in there we wanted to sell...

Howard: So you wanted to sell his practice while he still practice dentistry in Kingston in a small town of 50,000?

Hollie: Sure did

Howard: How does that even remotely go down?

Hollie: It went down.

Howard: Was it a win-win?

Hollie: Oh is this super Kevin it was a win was the best one of your top five moves in dentistry probably one of his top five moves

Howard: Well his best move was just waiting not to be born till 1977 I commend you for that that was being born in 62 that was the worst idea I ever had so so you so tell us what so you owned a couple other practices just in that small town of Kingston?

Hollie: Kingsport, yes so Kevin owned a couple practices David's practice was probably two miles from one five miles from another maybe ten miles from one and...

Kevin: It was just a quarter of a mile

Hollie: Yeah sorry quarter mile.

Kevin: It was close enough that when the story came out everybody assumed it was our office.

Hollie: Yes

Howard: So let's talk about that I mean there's not a dentist listening to this that gets what Wall Street gets what you got right name what made you buy a dental office a quarter mile from your office?

Kevin: It was one of the things that you know like saying we were in the position to make it happen and we were going to make it happen however we need to make it happen but we had the space to bring him in and keep him in the office and so it was really just a

Hollie: Trust

Kevin: Yes trust

Howard: So did you close down 150 cliffside private driver you sold that to someone else or did you buy that?

Kevin: Like I said the rent was month-to-month.

Howard: So basically what he did was Kevin bought the dentist and gave him an associateship Kevin bought the patient base the accounts receivable the equipment we donated some equipment and we hald ass out of there in what five days?

David: Yeah

Hollie: Five days so we got...

Howard: You guys that is amazing to go from absolute rock bottom tragedy to five days you got a plan and busted a move while singing the class song should I stay or should I go you decided

Hollie: We shut a business of 34 years

David: 40 years

Hollie: Of solo practitioner down close it up like you know if you closed your business you got a checklist of like 50 things you got to do your vendors your every software company your materials or supplies your chairs your landlord your utilities you name it we did it.

David: She's very good at making lists to do.

 Hollie: [Laughter]

Howard: and that's what consultants do so well I mean the dentist you know there will house as a set of skills but they're not they don't they don't cover everything from A to Z they don't even cover one percent I mean it's like an ark you know just yeah.

Hollie: So our cool things that we were shutting up practice of 40 years down, we were selling so we had contracts to do we were getting a buyer we were keeping a practice going so Mary Beth and then we're helping us keep all the money coming in and keeping the bills go out and then we were negotiating and then Kevin was over here going I gotta put him somewhere so Kevin started construction and then we had to do a computer basically a computer merge so that we could adapt an eagle soft database into an open dental database.

Howard: Okay who has the open dental and who had the eagle soft?

Hollie: Open dental is Kevin

Howard: Good job Kevin wait let me guess let me guess the old guy had the eagle soft?

Hollie: It was actually dentrix I apologize it was but he had dentrix.

Howard: Okay so he's not old enough to be on eagle soft he was just old enough to still be on dentrix okay that's my

Hollie: He said he had three-star dental do you know that one Howard?

Howard: No, the thing is the thing is about dentrix and eagle soft and whatever it's just the new Millennials aren't gonna do closed systems I mean a closed system is all for the seller and nothing for the buyer and with open dental I can hire some high school kid who's learning how to program from seriously I know five kids that program entirely and all their training was programming for dummies you see those those yellow books programming for dummies and and then get on your open dental on that mom says hey I wanted to do this and a high school punk kid who read one book programming for dummies gets in there and fixes it and dentrix and Eagle soft no you're not allowed to do that and they'll hire a bunch of employees to make a bunch of walls around it to make sure you can't do it yet you're the customer.

Hollie: So our final piece of this was you know I'm giving you so many layers but the final layer was to not forget Kelley his office manager for so many years who had such a beautiful spirit and every patient she knew them she loved them they loved her they were our like family so we had to create we had to create a legacy for her and we had to give David something that he could do and he could talk about every day to mourn with his with his patients but to remember her spirit and to allow them to all heal so we come up with a we come up with a marketing idea that was close to David's heart and it gives him a beautiful gift to give his patients every day so it was it was a pretty neat experience for sure one I'd never ever want to do again ever.

Howard: I just again I think the most bizarre part of this story is how you didn't have anger I mean this was I mean you knew both of these people this I mean this one guy Harry caused this whole nightmare and yet for some reason your heart anger is not the first play to go but what percent of the eight billion people on earth would anger be the first place they go and stay there for a very long time what percent of the planet of 8 billion?

Daivd: I would say at least 75 percent.

Howard: Yeah three out of four they'd go right to anger how did you get rid of anger?

David: Well I think I submerged it and I focused on what I needed to focus on which was taking care of myself my patients my staff and it's like when Kelly, Hollie and I and Kevin were talking and my little break room she asked me what is it you want I said I want us to make an arrangement where everyone wins I want to keep working, I want my staff to have the ability to work I want to have my patients in a safe location where they feel good about coming to and I want Mark Dentistry to benefit because they made a step of faith for me and I want to be the same thing for them I want to return that gesture so that I want to be part of something that I'm contributing to you just not hanging up.

Howard: Wow so that's amazing so how is it working with a instead of being the owner dentist now you're an employee for a dentist who looks like he just got out of dental kindergarten school how how does that work how does that work from being the big guy now the little guy to a really big guy who's only 12?

David: Well oh my being the old man in the place I'm just like the other grandfather image anyway so I'll tell you that I've never been happier in my professional career that I am right now.

Howard: and why is that why is that what was it?

Daivd: For one thing we have great people here it's a positive attitude and I can now feed on that positive attitude and I just love seeing my patients too there's so many of them that are become friends over the years and this makes it easy for me.

Howard: I hired my first associate like an hour after I opened up my right graduate May 11 open it up graduate may 11 open up September 21 87 and of course I was so dumb did I hire a wise older man like you and me to show us the ropes no I was so young and dumb I wanted a buddy from dental school so I hired another 24 year old well it was two kids it was me and Bob Savage neither of us do anything we just knew we were having fun but I have always said I've always observed my whole life that solo practicing dentist just don't look like they're having as much fun as group I mean who are you gonna talk about apicalectomeys root canals who would even get a bone grafting joke I mean you just you're a dentist and you were eight years of college hanging out with all these dentists and now you were alone and so do you think just group practice is psychologically more fun and healthy than solo loneliness?

Daivd: I imagine it depends on the group how the people work together but that's the thing about this I had some trepidation to begin with I was all anxious you know how am I going to fit into this can I keep up the pace that kind of thing but everybody has been great and got a couple of even younger fellows Dr. Hillman Dr. Ledford what 28 and 38 something like that I'm enjoying learning from them it's great.

Howard: I'm looking at Kevin's biceps wondering does does he just pull the teeth of his fingers or does he actually use an elevator you just reach and just pluck them out.

Kevin: I just look at them...

Howard: Nice to Hollie I always hear that the reason group practices don't have as much efficiency is because you're never gonna get Kevin and David and all those guys to agree on one bonding agent in one setting I mean I see reps all the time that are saying these guys complain about their about their overhead on their supplies but every dentist needs a different bonding agent they all need different gloves out there that's just crazy is that the same problem you see? Like I know friends I know this I have I know the limit that would push you to the edge and that is when you walk into a group practice say these are the only five burs you can use for a filling or a crown prayer there's only five there will never be six what percent of dentists at that point would just implode it'd be like the witch on The Wizard of Oz she would just melt I mean I would quit I'd quit I'd fire myself I can't do a crown prep with 5 burs so how do you how do you reconcile those problems?

Hollie: I think a little bit of that is I think there's things that are super important to a group practice and then I think there's things that are always negotiable basic fundamental systems basic likability and compatibility with the dentists basic cohesive spirits of why they're all there and what they want to do what they're all trying to achieve if that's expressed if there's the likability amongst the crowd then that makes things better and then the really big things that are important how we treat our patients the values based system how patients should enter into the practice all those are super critical systems that are must-haves basic overall bonding techniques and adhesives yes that should be unified but what but this doctor likes versus what bur that doctor likes that's individuality of their craft so when you blend it and you blend it in the right way you can have an amazing group practice that's thriving and that's got the name in town or we can go the opposite way in the opposite way is when everybody feels like they have handcuffs and no one feels any level of autonomy then you know it's just a bunch of brothers and sisters bickering in a room right.

Howard: That was poetry so you're saying the most important thing a group rental office has to have is that every team member respects their other team members and a likeable friendly cohesive way and that's non-negotiable and then the negotiable thing is what burrs and bonding agents.

Hollie: Right but when you look at those things then you know if everybody's got the same spirit we're all coming together every day for a purpose but then there's also you know group practice that's cutthroat he stole my patient he stole my patient he's sole my patient the one thing I think Kevin Martin is really good about is there are patients it's you know somebody can help them let's help them not don't take mine don't take mine don't take mine.

Howard: Well we you know you're either customer focused and I know dentists don't like to call them patients and I don't like the word patient because the word comes from I need you to be patient in this room while you wait because I'm busy that's where the word came from.

Hollie: I love customer because the customer is what we really have.

Howard: So you ask these dentists are you customer focused are you looking in the mirror narcissistically dentists focused they always look at you and they believe in their Cretan walnut brain oh I'm customer focus I'm like okay well you're you're close Friday Saturday and Sunday and you don't take emergency calls I'm eight and a half percent of emergency room visits are odontogenic and origin and then it gets even worse a person calls in and says yeah I broke my tooth can I come in and you're like well no no cuz Dr. Gary's here today but your doctor Kevin's patient and he doesn't work till next Friday and it's like if I'm the patient I mean it was like if I'm on the way to the hospital to have my appendix removed I don't really care if it's Kevin or Gary or your dad Tim who hasn't seen a patient here I need you to all focus on me the customer and I just I went when dentists tell me their customer focus I can't tell if they're it's an inside joke or if they actually believe it but how do you have a dental office focused on the individual needs of that patient while you're saying well this is my patient that's your patient you're not how do you do that?

Hollie: You don't so the best way to find out if a dentist is customer focused is to ask him how he would handle that malpractice letter from an attorney that a patient complains patients gonna send you the board how are you gonna handle that do you call your attorney first or the patient first now you know your customer focused or if they're me focused.

Howard: Yeah even though you're from Tennessee I was born in Kansas right that was a very Kansas down-to-earth answer I mean if you're first when someone's mad at you if your first urge is to call an attorney I mean I you're not from Kansas I mean you yeah you know you go over there and I also I can tell you in Kansas because I I heard this all the time that the largest Amish Mennonite population and the States is not in Pennsylvania where everybody talks about it's actually in Kansas and my gosh when a tornado comes a man knocks them all down there they all go to that barn 18 hours a day around the clock until it's done

Hollie: Yep

Howard: Yeah that's just how they roll I mean no one says you know I I didn't want this to happen it's like well we're past that it happened and I love the way Hollie that when this tragedy happened first thing you did is got in your automobile and showed up live and in person.

Hollie: I think the whole community showed up for David I think David's heart is what he's worked on for 40 years in the tri-cities area of just showing up for other people volunteering at miles for smiles friends in need he showed up and become a piece of the community that who wouldn't want to help him who wouldn't want to be right there on the frontlines with him you know what can I give you what can I do every person every vendor we called to close up their accounts they were like what can we do they would I mean anything they could do hostin gas was the hostin guess who refunded all your tanks?

David: That's Gibsons

Hollie: Yeah Gibson's our nitrous company and oxygen company they refunded every one of his tanks to him because they needed to do something.

Daivd: and they wouldn't let me pay the outstanding bill.

Hollie: They wouldn't let him pay the outstanding bill they just needed to do something, how can I show up for you and all I've got to give you is this and that was their part how I mean just...

Howard: What did one go back to Henry Schein that what do I'm Henry Schein what would it Ben Kolbush do because I know Stan Bergman the CEO of Schine, let me say one thing about Stan Bergman you can say anything you want about him but three times in my life I've signed up for some missionary dental trip and so they weren't always pure reasons I mean I went to Africa but I really want to climb Kilimanjaro and say you know but but we hit a but anyway long story short three times in my life I've been in the middle of a jungle nowhere you know cut off the grid all that and found a dental office decked out like it was my own and sure enough it was Stan Bergman and Henry Schein built that thing and I got to tell you the most hilarious video I ever made in my life I told these kids in Tanzania Africa I said my buddy Stan he's the one who built this dental office so I went you knows all these orphans I said I want you to all tell Stan I forgot what anyway but I said I want you to all tell him thank you and all this up with their Tanzanian so I said okay well three to one so I said so tell Stan thank you and they all started singing happy birthday to Stan so I know that Schine has a huge culture I mean that the human comes first and so talk about Ben.

Hollie: So Ben was David's sales rep for how many years?

David: Four five

Hollie: At least four or five years and Ben is just an enormous caring human being in general very good Christian man and would always come in and really how are you doing and what can I do for you and that's a caring person so Ben had called to check on David and asked what he could do and David was you know they didn't know what he could do.

David: Yeah we'd been talking already for several months previously about how I was I'm transitioning to you know selling the practice and just working at Friends in need only for a while.

Hollie: So him and Ben for many months before we're talking about selling the practice but never made a move on it so Ben works with some of my other clients in the region and Ben called me one night and he said I don't know what all you can do but I think you're the person who could do it so would you let me give would you let me give David your name and can we set up a meeting and you just talk to him and see what you can do so relationships matter they matter a lot and especially in this incident that it was a lot it was a relationship thing so Ben put this person together with this person and said just talk and that's how that started.

Howard: I wanna I want to tell you this in if I can to another type of tragedy remember it was about a decade ago a tornado hit Springfield Missouri and wiped out not only a dozen dental offices but knock out their home too I mean these dentists lost their office their home a lot of loss everything Hollie when you were looking at this work did you have any thoughts on should you have office overhead insurance should he did you have some insurance product that he should have had or didn't have?

Hollie: Well we talked about all of that because we had to go through and you know obviously his dental assistant went into a very mental break she was it was a very tragic experience for her and David need to figure out how to help her and they needed to find out how they could have help and if there was something that the building or the owners of the building or David or who could do something so David and I went through all of his policies and learning those inside and out so and lots of loopholes and looking at all the loopholes and I'm blessed to have attorneys in my family that were able to be my consultant on that and it's one of those things that this does tie in to asset protection and liability that I tell every doctor that I work with or don't work with if I could tell you one thing that the level of coverage you had when you got out of dental school is not the level of coverage you should have now you have to look at those policies you have to assess them on an annual basis if you're a growing thriving business you should have more coverage correct but they there's so many of these kids that get out of school and 10 20 years down the road they've just been paying the premium they've never had to use it they forget it's there and that they have no idea what that coverage is none so because if...

Howard: So what do you wish, you wish he would have had better what would you wish that he would have had differently on his insurance?

Hollie: I wish they would have had more protection I wish I had more protection on in his practice I wish I had more protection on obviously the assets of the fraction practice and I wish he would have had some tell policies for disability in that way he could be covered and his in his whole I mean there were so many things but who knew until you've been through it to go back and look and say in hindsight in hindsight so it definitely was a whole nother level to that.

Howard: and David what would, when you're we're talking to Millennials who again when Harvard Business Review when they take anything that people say they don't cook well there's zero evidence for that and you say oh they don't go to church okay well there's zero evidence that every slam Harvard Business you know they keep do an article after article and again you know why they keep doing it is because everybody keeps thinking there's a ghost there that's not a ghost what would you tell you know most all of our viewers of this show are still in dental kindergarten school they're all they're all under 30 what would you tell them how to maintain a community and dentistry about how you never know when a line drive pitch is gonna hit you right between the eyes and you're gonna wish that all those people you never wanted to go to a meeting with and now you need them.

David: Well you have to find for one thing be part of the community itself so that you're having people that care about you but also in order to have a good plan you have to have I think somebody who can advise you how to do things and if you can find consultant that you trust and can give you advice that would be one of the best things you could possibly do.

Howard: and every time I see someone in a whole bunch of trouble they were dr. know-it-all there I always tell a story about a dentist who was leasing this little thousand square foot in a big old 10,000 square foot center and the roof certainly can three doors down into his dental office turns out that everybody the yoga lady let everybody left because the lease said you had to fix you had to pay for the roof so that Denis had to fix the roof of a 10,000 square foot building and I say well who was your real estate attorney what idiot signed off on that oh I did it myself I'm a doctor of everything some people have a DDS degree that's a doctor dental surgery I have a DOE a doctor of everything I you know and they don't have any they don't they don't have any friends or convey don't have anybody that can stand up and well it's really weird that the greatest CEOs they try to hire every employee they want smarter than them why would you want to be the smartest person in the room if you're signing the payroll if I'm signing the payroll I want to be the dumbest guy in the room and these young Millennials do you want your best attorney you want I mean so again be more specific how can a young 25 year old dentist who's an associate somewhere be more involved in the dental community?

Hollie: Volunteer

David: Yeah your right, volunteer work.

Hollie: We got to tell people give it give a day a quarter go take somebody's teeth out go to the clinic...

Howard: Give a day of quarter?

 Hollie: Every quarter go give one a one eight hour day of your life and help people who are less fortunate stay humble stay humble go to your Dental Society meetings show up show up to keep the group alive but show up to learn from people who are smarter and older than you.

Howard: and I recommend missionary dentistry because it's the only time in my career I've been able to drink all day while I'm doing dentistry you just can't do that in the United States.

Hollie: I knew you would say that but community involvement so huge getting to know people huge because it makes you feel included and the young guys that are out there if they don't feel included that's the Millennial population I need to feel like I people like me so this would definitely feed into their likability if they were participating in their societies and they were volunteering they would feel that warm fuzzy likability that they would need and they could totally Instagram and Facebook it just so people saw how cool they were but it made that it would make them feel included in something that's bigger higher and more than they are because the opposite effect that's happened and I've watched it happen so much over the past five or six months and I've saved a lot of practices Howard are the ones that try to stand alone on their own and they have mental breakdowns they have emotional issues you know they get divorced I know how you feel about divorce they get you know they end up having...

Howard: I have 3.8 million things to say about divorce.

Hollie: I know you do that's all right this isn't a divorce show but they you know they start taking pills they start drinking they start doing naughty dirty habits they get on something.

Howard: Stop being personal about my divorce.

Hollie: but it's that you're either gonna feel included or you're gonna feel alone in the more you feel alone and the more you stand alone the more that all these demons start popping their heads up in your life so for these young guys they got to feel included.

Howard: Yeah but Kevin young guy Kevin it was this all charity or did it make sense business-wise?

Hollie: No it wasn't charity

Kevin: No it made sense business wise yeah I mean we had you know the opportunity to do again I mean I think it's it is a situation where we want to come and help the good I keep saying good news it is all the good news is you know he's an excellent dentist I knew his dentistry was great it would be different if he said this dentist that needs help you know I know he's not an ethical person I know he's not a good clinician you know if I called me then it might we probably had a longer conversation as to is this going to work at that point you'd be yeah we'd helping cover his office or see his emergencies but it wouldn't be a situation where I'd say yeah we're going do whatever we need to do to bring him into our office but in our case you know this was an easy call of you know we have an excellent dentist that needs help and we're perfectly willing to help him and from a business decision it worked great I mean I think it was Hollie made it a win-win for everybody and like said she's got I don't know how many family members she has but there are a lot of them and one is an attorney and it was an easy decision.

Howard: So Kevin so you bought that you bought the the 150 cliffside private driveKings for Tennessee practice and now you own three other officers your two in Kingsport and one in Johnson City are you the sole owner of all those?

Kevin: Yes

Howard: You don't have any partners in all those?

Kevin: No

Howard: I want you so you have three locations how many dentists you work you're a full-time general dentist?

Kevin: Right

Howard: and how many employed dentists work for you?

Kevin: Eight

Howard: Okay so talk about that because when you go into the jungle you don't you know when you go to the gorillas and the chimpanzees and orangutans you got the 400-pound gorilla and there's no democracy sitting around a table and when I see an org chart I mean look at religion you there's not many religions that have three gods sitting on top or four or five you know there's one God in the military you have one five-star general you don't have you know but when you look at an org chart where there's four people that are equal owners the staff always says you can't get anything done that's the big reason they don't like it when the doctor spouse works upfront because the doctors saying go write the spouse saying go left and they're like come on we need an org chart and the problem with all of these group practices is there's no 400-pound gorilla so how what so tell us your thoughts on why how did you reach 400 pounds and how does that work with the other eight gorillas that are all doctors of everything?

Kevin: I think in most cases it works well it just it came out of like saying my dad's a dentist I bought his practice and then just continued to grow up from there Hollie helped me with with the buying the other practices but it was a situation where not having the partners available and just not being willing to share the problem not being willing to share the decision-making but it works it works well I mean I think we're at the point that you know partners are I've never been against partners I've never been a situation where you know I want to own everything myself it's just that's just how it's worked right now I think it's...

Howard: Are you are you married?

Kevin: I am

Howard: Did you get a prenuptial on your marriage?

Hollie: No

Howard: Yeah so the dentist you you bought your practice from your dad I see the most stress of people actually going back to work with their dad or mom and they've been in there five years they have no contract nothing in writing and then all a sudden mom out of nowhere says oh you know that practice that was collecting five hundred thousand a year when you came out of dental school well yeah now it's doing a million and I'm ready to retire and it's worth a million dollars give me a million dollars or you're not eating Thanksgiving dinner at my house again I mean it's just crazy so.

Hollie: I think Kevin could tell you like you can be a family this is what Kevin I have in common is that you can have a family owned and operated businesses but that doesn't mean throw the baby out with the bathwater and don't have contracts we're all you still have to have contracts you still have to be a business but you can just work with the people who you trust the most and who would go to I mean then...

Howard: You know where that term throw the baby out of the bath water actually comes from?

Hollie: I know you're gonna tell me.

Howard: but you know where it really comes from so when I was little and we went to her grandparents house in Parsons Kansas both sides of there they still had outdoor plumbing they never called it an outhouse and they called your bathroom indoor plumbing and everybody took a bath on Saturday and the man got to go first and then the wife and and by the time the baby was in there, the water was black so when you dumped out that black water don't throw out the baby with the bathwater that is a true story and that's to this day I still only shower on Saturdays but it's genetic it's Kansas. So Martin you have eight associate dentist you're married and when people get married, you have children?

Kevin: I do.

Howard: Even though so you had children so you assumed that being a dentist was not a genetic disease inherited from your dentist father so you felt safe to procreate that there was no...

Kevin: My wife and I started dating when we were 14.

Howard: Nice

Kevin: We've been married for a long time and she has absolutely nothing to do with any of the practices.

Howard: How many kids you have do have?

Kevin: 2

Howard: Any of them do you think got the dental bug?

Kevin: I hope not

Howard: So just like you and just like you don't ever want to get a divorce with your wife and would you ever consider would you ever consider selling a partnership to these other eight dentists and then risk the fact that it could end in divorce or or what are your thoughts on that?

Kevin: Yes and no we've already set it up where we can have partnership but not you know voting share partnerships not ownership.

Howard: and Wall Street's doing that all the time like you look at someone like Mark Zuckerberg that might only own 20% of Facebook but he owns a hundred percent of the voting shares.

Kevin: Right

Howard:  and it's and when people talk about what's fair not fair I don't know you know to go with I don't know what to say with fair me when when you see the cutest little zebra crossing a creek and a crocodile he'd said it's hard to believe in fair I mean just I mean this whole episode I mean it is it's just not fair what happened to David who's going about minding his own business and then all of this happens life is just terribly not fair but you got to be prepared for it. Hollie the only theme of my podcast for the four years ago when you were on to this day is that they always want to buy a CAD cam for 150,000 a laser for 150 they always they always know they're gonna solve this upside down dental office or the 150,000 dollar purchase and I'm like no the only return on investment is a dental consultant every time you get every time you give a dollar to a dental consultant you'll get the dollar back plus a dime in that calendar year and every time you give $150,000 to a CAD CAM machine or a CBCT machine or a laser you'll probably it's very likely you'll never even get the dollar back ever so you know any so my next question is to Kevin I want him to answer this knowing that you're sitting in a within reach of slapping him as he fallen is he fallen for the big thing what what major technology Kevin have you signed off on?

Hollie: He has it all be careful.

Kevin: Wanted to go back to the question about the burrs and the supplies and restricting that I think what I see in dental offices is and Hollie may correct me here but you know I think we've got that point you're seeing Millennials one of my practice to sell the practice so they're obsessed with an EBITDA and supply percentages and they don't invest in things like a consult my colleague and Hollie has worked with us for years and how many times is I mean never she sat down said we're gonna get your supplier cost of this no she wants it at that number but it's not gonna we're gonna beat you all to death to give you one thing it's we're gonna work on case presentation we're gonna work on relationships we're gonna work on these kinds of things and so but then you see people that I mean they're just obsessed with getting this number down so as far as the technology part I want the best thing for our patients so we offer IV sedation implants all the surgical options and so we have comb beans we've got CERACs we've got iTero's but I know in the long run or the short run you know that doesn't necessarily look great on a on a female Alex either PL or those kinds of things but I'm not looking to turn around sell this thing next week I want to give our doctors to the best thing they can to treat our patients because I mean we're in a small community I see these people day in day out I know Dr. Guy wouldn't but if we have a doctor that you know didn't treat our patients alike like we want them to be treated then you know chances are I'm gonna get a phone call talked about living in Kansas where he's Tennessee they might show up with a shotgun but you know I see these people all day long so if something doesn't go right yeah I don't want to hear about it somebody's gonna hear about it so that that's kind of but yeah we've got the technology and

Hollie: But he's got the culture to support the technology you gotta have the culture.

Howard: Yeah I am when you said about the shotgun dentist sent me a joke the other day says that daddy I have a new boyfriend and dad says oh good I have a new gun the daughter says I'm not seeing the connection the dad says hopefully neither will the cops but yeah it's I do believe in CAD cams and CBCT and all those things if it's toys in the bathtub that makes the the dentist want to play I I think they're all great for psychology no one on earth can tell me that your chair side milling machine can make a better crown than my lab man you know you just can't there's nothing you can do with a laser that I can't do with a $1 scalpel but if buying a laser keeps you loving dentistry and wanting to go to work and play every day then it's there and I also agree that the number one killer of everything is just allowing toxic people to stay on your team not backing your team when a toxic patient comes in which is this is the most toxic patient story I've ever heard I mean David you you get the gold medal I can't believe we've been here for an hour I don't I don't want to I didn't want to ask this question until the very end so that if you say pass we'll just cut it but I guess a lot of people are wondering this is he gonna pay for these crimes I mean did he get in trouble did he go to court is he they got him at the at the scene right?

Daivd: Yeah and their were eyewitnesses to everything that happened but he first pled not guilty and just finally yesterday that was a hearing where he waived the right to a jury trial and accepted a sentence of life in prison.

Hollie: Without parole

David: Parole would have happened maybe in 51 years he'd be 115 by then.

Howard: and you knew this man for 18 years?

Hollie: Oh he knew far longer

David: At Least 20 years.

Howard: and can good people do bad things and I mean how do you wrap your mind around it can good people do bad things or do bad things make you realize you were never good how did your I mean you're a doctor how do you wrap your mind around this?

David: Well I'm a dentist not a psychologist, essentially some people are very good at hiding part of their personality I think he had more than one side to him, so it's a it's kind of crazy I'll never understand his mind but I know that he knows what he did was horribly wrong and he knows he has to pay for it and that's the best thing.

Holli: I mean Howard so here's what's craziest I mean this gentleman was he was our family fix-it guy I mean he threw my kids in the swimming pool he went to my church he was David's friend and their kids grew up together and they went off field trips together and he was David's repair guy in the practice so he there are so many levels of who this person was and so many good behaviors that just watching the social media fight that came down from this was absolutely astonishing the amount of people that knew this other side to him versus the amount of people who knew the good side to who he was.

Howard: So other people were aware that he had these this other side to him?

David: Apparently so

Hollie: All these stories started coming out but for every person that had something bad to say about him there was probably 10 that had something just amazing he helped me he took the same lady milk once a week because she was a shut-in I mean just...

David: Lots of acts of kindness but so much craziness.

Hollie: So much kindness and then there was these pieces of crazy.

Howard: Wow can I ask even more personal question that I shouldn't even ask do you think you ever envision yourself going down to the prison and visiting humor is that a wall that...

David: You know I kind of wondered that over the last couple of days, especially once he was sentenced and perhaps someday but not anytime soon.

Howard: Yeah and why do you I'm why were you able to come on the show and do a podcast about this I mean I would think this is when every dentist on earth would one go down in their basement lock the door why are you able to be transparent?

Daivd: Actually I waited for three months right because I got a contact from you back and I think it was June and I was not ready to do anything at the time well over time things have worked so well and life has been so good to me I've been blessed beyond my ability to mention in the aftermath of what happened so I think it says something worth sharing and benefit to others as well.

Howard: So the lesson of this whole show for you kids is that my gosh don't don't think in fear and scarcity I mean when you're a dentist well some days gonna be a retired dentist like Kevin's dad I mean you're you want a community so when you're in dental school and you're backstabbing people so you can get a higher grade cuz you want to accept into ortho school okay well now you're an orthodontist everybody just calls you the backstabber I mean these are your colleagues these are your homies you're gonna need them every dentist that you trip on the way up the stairway you're gonna have to face when you're going back down the stairway and my god there's nothing cooler in Phoenix Arizona and when some dentists hits rock bottom they're all there to help them they're there at the funerals volunteering is a great place I mean it's a great place because the patient is the main concern and all of a sudden you're now some some dentists across the streets dental assistants and you know just just keep doing it keep I know you're introverts I know you're homebodies I know you think the librarian was the wildest lady in the whole University but he wasn't there were more wild ladies than the librarian and my god live your love and also look what happens when you have a dental consult do you are Hollie do you live in Kingsport, Tennessee?

Hollie: I do

Howard: I thought you had money well I thought you'd be in Miami by now I mean my god you're still.

Hollie: You know I was in Charlotte for so long Howard but when I wanted to have a family coming home was important to me so my take the commuter airline to get to Charlotte to get to wherever I are gonna take the plane to train the automail to get where I want to go but it's the same with a consultant it would be with a dentist is having that sense of community and having that sense of belonging and being a part of study clubs or dental societies or you know volunteering all that's kind of ingrained in who I am as a human being that I've got to have that so that I can feel like I belong.

Howard: So a couple questions how do my homies contact you David if someone's not getting over a violent act, Kevin if someone wants to know how do you get eight dentists to work under one roof, Hollie if someone needs a little consultant how do they contact all you guys?

Kevin: Call Hollie

Howard: I'm sure she's organized enough to handle it. Hollie how do they reach you?

Hollie: Hollie@Bryantconsultants.com you can find me on facebook you can find me on instagram Bryant consultants.

Howard: So Bryant I would give them their driving in their car they tell me all the time the podcast they love the podcast because they're free I get great guests and and but they're there on the treadmill or some so Bryant just think Bry and ant Bryant it's Bryant Consultants your logo should be an ant you should put your beautiful face and hair on the adorable little ant like Disney would do it and be Hollie Bryant so their name but just go to Byrantconsultants.com and we also we always do a transcript of every podcast and when we post it on dentaltown under podcast for the transcript because a lot of people prefer reading than listening and by the way the coolest dentist I remember my life she was this young kid in the lecturer and everybody was teasing her to do her Howard impersonation anyway long story short she listens all my podcasts on 2x and she can absolutely sound like me at 2x speed I thought that was hilarious so go to Bryant Consultants you can find all their contact number in the end the deal and gentlemen everyone and you know get a dental office consult just have that if you have every time I go to the physician and they need some image they don't own a CBCT they send me down the street to some Imaging Center and which which took me five years to get that guy to him get a CBCT so I don't need it and yet you don't need a chair see you know what you need you need in the Mafia what did every Italian Sicilian mafioso have a consigliere an attorney and that was a you know if you're in the Mafia you would have a consigliere and every dentist needs a dental consultant more than they need a toy thank you so much for coming on the show today it was an honor to podcast interview you.