Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran
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1350 Strategic Marketing with Wayne Lavery & Karen Galley of Patient News : Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

1350 Strategic Marketing with Wayne Lavery & Karen Galley of Patient News : Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

2/7/2020 3:00:00 AM   |   Comments: 0   |   Views: 135
Patient News founder and CEO, Wayne Lavery, is a strategically minded leader with extensive experience developing effective marketing campaigns in the health care provider marketplace. Not one to sit still for too long, in his spare time you’ll find Wayne on a mountain bike or ski racing – on his new bionic knees. A good thing the company headquarters has a state-of-the-art gym and spin studio. Also with the company since inception, President and co-owner, Karen Galley is a true “road warrior” working between offices in Haliburton, Toronto and Manhattan. Karen delivers exceptional business results, and a unique corporate culture focused on client success. An avid foodie and wine enthusiast, you’re as likely to find Karen Apres ski! Maybe that’s why this dynamic duo is so successful.

VIDEO - DUwHF #1350 - Wayne Lavery

AUDIO - DUwHF #1350 - Wayne Lavery

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Howard: it is just a huge honor for me today to be podcast interviewing Karen Galley on the left and Wayne Lavery he looks like Bruce Wayne if you see and walk out of a phone booth on the right they are with the president and CEO of Patient News let's start with Karen on the left Karen is the president of patient news over the past 25 plus years patient news has worked with more than 7,500 dentists including one of my buddies I don't know if you saw me I she was on the show I pushed out one of her videos you did with her did you see did you see that um which one mom did I push that let me find it real quick it was it was what it wouldn't be hazel glass has hazel glass per episode 238 smartest anyways they work with more than 7,500 dentists and generated millions of new patients for their clients over this time the company has transformed from a direct mail provider to a full-service marketing agency and technology company with offerings that include business intelligence call tracking and scoring staff training web development paid advertising SEO social media and more patient news has been the recipient of countless awards including being named a top 100 employer for four consecutive years as compared with more than 70,000 companies across the country they've received awards and accolades for graphic design drug marketing business practices and environmental efforts clients get patient news and net promoter score of 86 putting in in the same servicing league as Zappos and Amazon and so on his right Bruce Wayne Lavery is your middle name why is it Bruce Wayne Lavery or Wayne anyway Batman will call them Wayne Batman is a strategically minded leader with an extensive experience developing effective marketing campaigns in the healthcare provider marketplace not one to sit still for long and a spare time you'll find Wayne on a mountain bike or ski racing on his new Bionic knees a good thing that the company headquarters has a state-of-the-art gym and Spin studio also with the companies since inception president co-owner Karen galley is a true road warrior anyway I can go on and on and on for 20 hours but what no really you guys have a flair for marketing and you kids a quarter of our viewers are still in dental school I know that send me an email Howard a tunnel town calm and just tell me how young you really are and the rust up we're all under 30 but they think they the best dentists in the world are gonna learn bone grafting and sealants and bonding agents they say you know they ask all these what type of composite he is like did you got to have a flair for HR attracting and building a great team and you got to have a flair for marketing and you guys have been the leaders in marketing for a long long time what do you wish every dentist knew about marketing that you knew that they're spending too much time looking at bone grafting

Guest:  well the first thing Howard is you didn't finish my biown it was gonna end you're more likely to find me you know apres-ski so that's why Wayne and I you know make a great partnership you know he's doing the skiing and I'm doing the apres ski so there you go well but what is that for ski a PR es ski a Persky I found my new ski instructor I'll see after that so so you said am i so Karen so a purse key AP Aria a purse key is when you go to the the bar faster you know

Howard:  I had this conversation with them with the late Omar Reed you just passed away Saturday or two ago at the I think he was 92 or whatever but I'm Omer on Omer told me something that punched my between the eyes Arizona has two ski resorts and I said I told my he's going skiing and he said he says you know what when I turned 50 I was at the top of the mountain I looked in that mountain he says are you started thinking of all the dentists the skied into a tree and he said he's slowly ski down was done and I thought and right when he was saying that one of my buddies in an Albuquerque I just skied into a tree and and lost about a year of work but I uh so yeah I only when I go to ski resorts I do only sit in the bar and drink all day long and

Guest:  the golden ticket so so Howard to answer your question you know marketing if it was you know number one off the top recommendation it would be something like you gotta go multi-channel you know it's not a one faceted one and done type you know program I mean marketing is is consistent marketing's for real it's got to be part of your strategic plan and you've got to be where your patients are so that would be my recommendation is always be marketing if there was one thing 

Howard: well my recommendation is to never go into your business I mean III think your business and no sir I would never do what you do because a dentist will call you up and they'll use your services and then then they'll tell someone on downtown or hotels yeah I tried this marketing thing you didn't work at all and then I'll stop and say um well how many incoming calls did you have in your office last year no idea well after the marketing how many incoming calls you have no idea how many landed on your website no idea after the market I mean I mean these guy it's like it's like a dumb deaf blind guy talking to his drunk dentist buddy at the bar and but they they they don't they I don't know I've never seen any dentists outside of a DSO that even has the data infrastructure to even know what's going on they don't know how many land on their website how many convert to calling the front desk how many incoming calls the front desk before they convert to scheduled the patient how many treatment plan presentations get converted and at the end of the day there you say yeah Karen and Wayne I tried their stuff didn't work yeah Wow how are

Guest:  you kind of nailed it with the the information gathering and the data and the great thing is there's you know there's no lack of data right now and you know we know dentists you know they love information you know so if we thought about it you know with our good friend Chris Phelps loves to talk about Colby so you know dentist would be at nine eight six three so nine meaning they love to gather data and that's where marketing has changed over the years and that's what these young students this is really what they have to figure out is the fact that you know you're not going into it blind the same information you have to make great decisions while practicing dentistry you've got access to the same data for making great marketing decisions so that's really where it's changed over the last few years okay and

Howard:  I'm gonna hold your feet to the fire yeah if I wind up a hundred dentists how many of them could tell you how many landed on their website last month two down here how many could tell you how many incoming phone calls they had last month oh maybe you know between two and four okay them are still from Canada I mean they just I mean my god I meant and then and then they'll argue about the mega Pascal's on a bonding agent yeah this one's twenty five mega Pascal this one twenty seven mega Pascal's and they wouldn't know the incoming calls in their dental office plus or minus a thousand a thousand he's measuring mega Pascal's on a bonding strength and they couldn't tell you plus or minus a thousand on the number of people who called their office last year 

Guest:you know not everybody loves that you know the word marketing it's been kind of that you know dirty word they'd much rather talk about details like that then how to promote how to brand promote sell their practice and so they they sometimes shy away from that based on their their nature but you know that's why they need to you know partner with great companies who can access that data you know and work on their behalf to to drive those results forward and to your point into Wayne's point earlier the data is all there and it's available we just need to connect we need to extract it we need to help analyze it and provide the programs and services that are gonna drive the the ROI show them how many calls are coming in listen to those calls score those calls help their team at the front desk you know define that you know ideal patient and you know help them make those decisions because it may not be inherently in their nature and we know that to your point okay

Howard:  but you gotta slow down Spanky my my listeners a quarter are in dental school they don't know what a call scoring they don't you know what that means well you said scoring twice what what is call scoring when you're in dental school they're still in school they're learning the periodic table they're learning applied math is physics applied physics chemistry applied chemistry biology and an apply biologies dentistry so call scoring is jumping into grad school 

Guest:so call scoring you know you don't want to just listen to calls you want to know how effective your front desk team is being on converting those calls to new patient appointments so when we talk about call scoring we talked about you know with patient news a twenty five point scale how are they managing that that greeting how are they doing in terms of you know answering questions you know tough questions like insurance how are they doing in terms of actually converting that to an appointment are they asking for other family appointment times and each call being scored on that twenty five point scale you know let's the dentist you know have an idea of how his front test team is doing and it goes even a step further you know if Mary's answering the call and she's having a tough time on you know insurance she can then refer to the scripting and the video and you know get some port with that so you know that's that's all happening with with patient news and our clients have their finger on the pulse in terms of how their front desk is operating and and what they need you know in terms of assistance 

Howard: you know three words I don't like is United States Canada and Europe I I don't because like Toronto how do you compare Toronto to Montreal or British Vancouver Columbia I mean I went fishing on the oh my god what was the Yukon River with my dad where the Yukon goes into Alaska I mean even if you've been fishing on the Yukon in the Yukon it'll look anything like Toronto with a retractable roof and a base but anyway long story short same thing United States America I mean what would eat I'm out Manhattan to Alaska Mississippi to New York the euro Germany did you know it's crazy but those people will like racism or they'll say you know though they'll say an entire race of people like the Irish are all drunk when in fact only 38 percent of us are alcoholics Patrick's Day this year so with my stories of what's happening over there oh my god I was so lucky when they had me lecture the President of the Dental Association's last name was Farran how IRAs cool is that you know they'll just say direct mail doesn't work and psych dude there's two hundred and eleven thousand dentists in America I know people that just only live off direct mail and  then the person saying it's always some 30 year old Instagram Queen and I'm like well Instagram Queen do you need an over denture do you need a on for I bet you don't even have a cavity but that lady doing direct mail so only one out of a hundred works but it's one out of a hundred they're advertising something she comes in and she needs up fifty thousand dollar dental case so so what do you so so first talk to direct mail cuz I know a lot of old people like me that know it works and most people under thirty just think that it went out with the yellow pages so address that did direct mail go out with the yellow pages are not good question hard

Guest: so you're right a lot of people think right now Direct Mail is dead and actually the exact opposite is true I mean what's happened is  yes transactional mail so yes we're not getting our bills and you know we're not getting a lot of statements in the mail right now but the fact is is Direct Mail for marketing purpose is actually increasing at about two to four percent a year and the other great thing about that is that our mailboxes aren't full of bills anymore so the marketing mail is actually standing out even that much more so when we think about dental offices we think about community so in most cases you know you're drawing patients from let's call it two to five miles surrounding your practice so Direct Mail has that opportunity to build your brand awareness within your market area within that within that radius and then you have to repair that there's there's really just one consumer that we're trying to connect with and that's female at a house and you know that individual that proposal the Direct Mail the fact that area will to include additional information on health care on dental health you're able to introduce yourself in a

Howard:  mighty shocked him white white did the female is that because you're a sexist and you just like women more than men but why did you specifically say women 

Guest:well because they made percent of the health care purchase I know and it's so it's so crazy and there's just some things 

Howard: I wish American I wish the whole world that focus on one thing that Homo Sapien is that the species the male is bigger than the female and they have different behaviors chimpanzees are the same size but but in sapien like say girls make 90% of all the appointments bla bla bla and I wish they would focus more on bonobos because you have sapiens you have gorillas and gorillas and sapiens the man is much bigger than the woman and there's a lot of violence there chimpanzees are the same size you can't you know theirs but bonobos is a female hierarchy so the woman is the 400-pound gorilla in bonobos and that's why you hear people will say things like a man says and I all right then a woman says they're like I was kind of bitchy what the hell'd she say that for it's like because you're a sapien and it came from a woman and I wish the world would focus on the difference between sapiens and gorillas chimpanzees neutral and bonobos ask yourself why does the little female blue well swim down the middle and those big ol boys on our side because that's the way they're programmed and right now what you just said is that mom's gonna make the appoint for the kid hell they come out of the office all say to a man do you have a dude you know your kids birthday I'm trying to fill out the intern what do you mean you don't know your kid's birthday was there a Christmas tree it was there a pumpkin and they don't say well you know Wayne Gretzky scored thirty thousand goals like we're not talking about Wayne Gretzky we're talking about your son's birthday the men are significantly different in the dental offspring relationship true or false

Guest: that's a pretty fact the healthcare decisions but you know great in our human Sapien you know culture that you know women look great and also get to make all the decisions so what what is where does that the sapien you know hierarchy you've got going there

Howard:  yeah if you want to go to a PTA meeting and go to the parent-teacher conference you're a girl I mean I you know I mean there's just difference and we're getting a sensitive society where we can't say the obvious thing that boys and girls are different

Guest: I'm sorry to interrupt you know women also want information they want quality information before they make a decision you know so that's you know a kind of key differentiator at patient news everything we do is utilizing content you know we don't just send a postcard with a special offer we send a high-value piece that's full of value educated content mouths body connection information about you know the family children you know depending on what the demographic is and you get a much you know higher response rate with a much better educated consumer with that high value content and it is the female head of household jump in here for you know we kind of take it one step further and this is the information gatherer speak email is that we actually with our direct mail and also with our digital marketing we use a company called true impact the does engagement and analysis  that we use is with female head of house so the language the imagery the colors everything is designed with that consumer in mind and at the end of the day it just makes for a higher return on investment for you know our clients dentists 

Howard: so you let me go back so back to direct mail though is it age specific I mean when use direct mail or you are you focusing on grandma and not millennial 

Guest:no I mean this I think we kind of have that presumption that it doesn't resonate with Millennials but the studies that they've done is that that under 30 group still likes to receive direct mail and it still resonates with them they may take a little bit different path when doing research they may go online immediately but that doesn't mean when something's in their mailbox that they're not gonna pick it up and look at it and read it yeah just to finalize that or to add to that point Wayne you know we're going to mail to the ideal target within each practice area so that may be comprised of an older demographic it may be comprised of a soccer mom you know family demographic you know but we're going to target and mail to the audience based on that individual practice and the content will be reflective of that it's not a you know a spray-and-pray type approach

Howard:  okay this is dentistry uncensored so I don't want to tell I don't want to talk about anybody anything that anyone agrees on so let's go to first um this when they ask me what courses like they'll say you know Howard shouldn't should I learn to place implants or Invisalign I say well what do you ask of me for what what's showing up in your office I mean what are your demographics I wouldn't know you know if everybody in your area is on Instagram and once Invisalign then do that if everybody's grandma and wants implants and gum disease so when you're looking at business intelligence which comes force the chicken or the egg the horse of the cart I mean can you take an office and start targeting do you want to start targeting old ladies with implants or young kids with Invisalign or how do you how do you decide what that what the mix is gonna be

Guest: yeah Wayne do you want this one so the first thing we do these questions are so bad neither of them so the first thing we do is so we integrate our Business Intelligence Platform integrates with the practice management software so we'll extract the patient and then what we'll do is we'll call geo plot it so we put it on a map and we see exactly where your patients are located so we can look at trends and we can determine you know what your ideal patient looks like then we have some very sophisticated tools that do some demographic analysis that talk about all those things that you just said you know what's the age of these consumers what's the the family size what's their income what buying channels do they use do they you know look towards Instagram you know you know how are they purchasing goods that starts gives us the information and the background that we need to start making those proper marketing decisions so it's not you know blue to magic it's literally just using the information we have in front of us and using the tools that are available to us and then

Howard:  when I see people arguing about marketing as a you know moral ethic or whatever it's always at a study Club and it's an always an old guy and and he's always mad because the young person is talking price and and once they start missing price you got that that what is it I'm a Boomer what's the younger boomer m'lady okay boomer but but when the Millennial says okay boomer it's usually about price you know you got some 60 year old dentists with IDI saying I don't like that cleanings and x-ray for $49 and then their response is okay boomer so is price a big deal in your marketing do you think it the economic incentive  is a big part of the return or not really

Guest: I'm going to say you know it's it's the positioning of the practice I mean you do need to identify your differentiating feature what is your competitive it you know and that could be service based it could be the fact that you know you have a senior demographic and you're providing value-added information it could be a soccer mom demographic and you're providing you know convenience and on-time appointments it could be that you're going for a value price model I mean it comes down to the type of practice that you want to run and the positioning and where you're gonna find competitive advantage so the short answer is no you don't have to slash prices and provide all kinds of offers if you provide enough value to justify your price point within your market 

Howard: so the five piece of marketing going back to when I got my MBA from ASU that was before Fred Flintstone was even born the five PS were product price promotion place and people is that still the thing in marketing 

Guest:now data plays such a huge role in marketing that it's not data is more important than the five PS of marketing well I mean the five piece there's certainly components of those I mean there's product you know but now we're looking at you know targeting we're looking at response you know return on investment return on investment isn't just using you know eighty eight industry averages anymore I mean return on investment you can integrate right into your practice management software and determine the this marketing campaign generated the Smith family and the Smith family brought three dependents with them and this is what they've spent so far over the last six months and you can loop that right back to the campaign spend and get yourself an ROI right down to the penny

Howard:  okay I wanna get too specific so so if my homie calls you wants to contact you and by the way this is no commercial no one ever has paid come on this show I'm not saying someone couldn't I mean you know if it was the right you know if I got my if I got enough millions of dollars I will sell my soul on this program I'm just kidding but um first of all how do they contact you is it patient 

Guest:absolutely yes patient

Howard:  if they wanted this business intelligence where you extract my patient list and tell me what I have how do they do that and what is what does that cost to get like a diagnosis exam diagnosis an exam what does that cost 

Guest:so you know our onboarding process you know we start with a free discovery session if you will and we get a little bit more background in detail about your practice specifics we get you connected to zebra and we'll provide you  know a value-added consult for  no charge you know we can do a demographic analysis we can share your data points through practice zebra we can do an online audit that's all free and then from there we'll recommend you know see if there's any gaps in your patient journey and where marketing may be able to fill a few holes and we go from there but our price points start with you know practice zebra at you know 249 a month and go right up to direct mail full suite campaigns with marketing 60,000 a year so mm-hmm 

Howard: I want to slow you down because you just said I practice zebra and that that's a new thing you're doing I saw that on the on the message board the other night there was a there's a thread on dental town under marketing and someone patient news and practice zebra so that's a new deal so in case I no one's heard about that well you we talk about what that

Guest: practice zebra yes Josie here over who'da take a question so practice vibra it's a Business Intelligence Platform that we developed two years ago it integrates with your practice management software and probably the difference between us and some of the other business intelligence or providers is the fact that we're looking at every component of the patient journey and giving data back on that so not only does it report on the health of your existing patient base it looks at your new patients relative to marketing campaign spins demographics etc we've already discussed the fact that we have a call tracking and scoring system ours is a little bit different than some of the other ones out there in the fact that it integrates with the practice management software and correlates actual financial data to phone calls and then we also have the digital footprints ID that talks about all your google analytics as well as reviews but the interesting thing is because we're  tapping into that data there's all sorts of kind of really cool tools that we've added to that so we have a product called review booster that post appointment sends a text and email and an effort to generate reviews works great we have a appointment scheduler or I'm sorry an appointment reminder service we've also got a kind of a really cool tool that we've just developed which is a dental membership plan enhancer so it's a communication cadence that goes out to your assured and underinsured kids in an effort to to build your membership plan so you know patient news where we're not gonna win the development race we're a smaller company we've got 65 full-time staff you know but the thing is this we're not you know we're not private equity back lot of money thrown around and dental right now go ahead I just gonna finish that up by saying you know we're not gonna win the development race but we've got a really great team we've got some great advisors and the tools that we develop we feel have a real impact on productivity and in production 

Howard: so on on your practice zebra I'm still confused on who are the Flies go ahead Karen because research they they just why do zebras have stripes they just figured out it was to repel flies no I'm serious muta stripes yeah I I'm posting it on that thread face a new zebra I'm gonna post as I say Wayne or Karen who are the Flies but yeah zebra stripes are proven that it was the that design was to repel flies but so I'm gonna break this down into the light power

Guest: another zebra trivia for you are zebras white with black stripes or are they black with white stripes hmm I'm going black with white I'm not tellin ya

Howard:  that is interesting but um so so let's go to the back to the practice manager information because I'm I thoroughly I've kind of reached a whole new level of happiness now because I've just accepted the death of private practice dentistry because I realized I've told them for 32 years like your stupid dendrix an eagle soft when you're trying to pick between dendrix or eagle soft it's like deciding do you want to die from a heart attack or cancer would you like your leg amputated above or below the knee and and then the fact that it hook into QuickBooks Pro and you know and then their question is you know you know the so basically dsos are just rapidly advancing because the dentist just don't know their numbers and the more you tell them the more they don't care and finally one day I rise well I guess they just all want to be a pharmacist at Walgreens III I've never gone to the pharmacy at Walgreens and the pharmacist said god I wish I own my own place so so they're just dying a slow death because they don't give a crap about any of their numbers and when you sit there so but let's pretend there's like one guy and he says like some one drunk Irish dentist in Toronto that asks you what's of these practice management systems or any of them better I mean I use open dental is there any practice management system that when you do your business and intelligence is better than the others are they all equally shitty well yeah

Guest: they provide a lot of data you know it's kind of the equivalent sometimes of like trying to drive a bike with you know jet plane navigation you know sometimes you just don't need all that data obviously there's certain components that you need to run your practice with but the numbers that you're going to take action on you know sometimes just aren't available so you've made a dashboard that's pulling

Howard:  ah is it pulling numbers out of the incoming fault call log I mean incoming calls or website traffic so first of all it's connecting to those 

Guest:you know shitty practice management you know platforms and it's pulling data right out but to Wayne's point it to disseminate that data to a few key kpi's that are you know you can take action and what are those KPIs that you like I love the new patient and your new patient value it's amazing you know a lot of dentists don't know you know that the comparison between their total and you know their average patient value and their new patient value which is usually more than double so you know the new patient information you know what the history is they're  active patients what percentage of their active patients are scheduled what percentage of their new patients are scheduled to come back for a second visit you know these are data points that you know you can draw directly from the system but they're  not necessarily visible when you're just in your  existing PMS platform so we really help to pull those data points out and provide that feedback to the practice and help them to take action to drive the revenue yeah and the other great thing about it is kind of one-stop shopping it's you know you've got the the business intelligence components you've got your call tracking and scoring you have your digital footprint your reviews everything's in one dashboard so you don't have to go into three or four different platforms to to view the data and it's all there for you it's a single sign-in so

Howard:  so back to key is a patient value new patient value family ratio to talk about more key performance indicators that you like

Guest: yeah everyone's talking about new patients I got 1,500 new patients last year I'm doing great well do we report on new patients at the same time but we also report on lost patients so at the end of the year at the end of the quarter what's your net new yeah 1500 might be great but a few of Trident 1700 over the time period you know you're on a skateboard going up at Hill just to the kid 

Howard: I want you to analyze your your mom and dad's practice cuz when I go into these and suppose a quarter of these kids got a mom dad first cousin uncle somebody in the blood line is and you could always tell because they have that I inherited a genetic disease look in their face you can just tell Wow something's wrong with this person it's inherited and I know I'm just gonna but so they look at the deal and they say I'm they go back and I'll say okay your dad's from Katy Texas and he's practice here from age 25 to 65 and you're gonna go back into him and join him after graduation and how many hygienist says he had your entire life and he goes Bessie she's got a bell around her neck and we put her in run room 1 and we feed her and everything ok ok so you've had Bessie the hygienist in room 1 for 40 years and every month your dad's got 20 new patients a month for 40 years and Katy Texas ain't grown one person since you were born cuz in Katy Texas every time a girl gets pregnant a guy leaves town so how could you put 25 new patients a month on a dental office schedule and never increase the size of your practice how could that mathematically happen 

Guest:yeah because they're not scheduling to come back for another appointment they're loosening as many or more than their onboarding you know I mean if you're not doing any marketing we know the average practice is losing 15 you know to 20% of their patient base just through natural occurring attrition you know so unless you've got that new patient flow you know and it's out stripping your you know patients that are falling off the schedule you know we've got in practice zebra clickable list you know you see the percentage of active patients who are not currently scheduled you couldn't you know take action on that there's a list right front of you know and if they're if they're lost if they you know of left the practice haven't been in for two months you can go back after them you got to keep the patience and you know with your retention marketing as well which we haven't even touched on there's the acquisition marketing but then there's that loyalty loop and the retention component you can't lose them out the back doors you know faster than you're getting them in 

Howard: yeah I firmly believe I mean if you've had the same number of hygienists for a decade then it's just here's a simple math every time you put a new patient on her schedule an old one fell off you just  been treading water for decade after decade but another problem they have is they're they finally realize they say okay I need to do marketing but they freeze cuz what does that even mean is that I need a new website is this social media do I need to have get an Instagram page are we talking Direct Mail and a lot of them this sounds so archaic to ask but they they bought that old practice in Katy Texas and he's had a yellow page ad for forty years and she's like does she even cancel the yellow page ad I mean and  if someone was saying you know my world would be so much greater I hear this all time you know I pay all my rent mortgage Clemen bill I computer insurance professional dues everything is just hunky-dory but you know if I he's got ten more new patients a month I've already paid all my bills it'd be nothing but net so if she just wanted ten more new patients a month would you say build a new website would you say direct mail what would you tell her 

Guest:well I don't think any of those marketing activities you know operate in a silo anymore they're all connected so it could be a combination of all of the above I mean it's a website it's generating reviews for that website it's potentially a direct mail program that's building awareness the crazy thing is is you know towns like Katy Texas you know or you know small cities in the Midwest that's what we see you know these super solo practices because the guy that figured it out is the guy that knows I've got a population of 50,000 and I bet you I can get 20% of those people coming to my practice and I'm gonna shut the doors on my competition cuz these guys figured it out and up in Canada we like to say those guys are making hockey player money

Howard: yeah and I'll tell you what if you're a dentist and you like hockey there's something wrong with you can't be pro dentist during the day then knock him out at night while you're drinking beer but yeah whenever I meet a dentist who one guy is bringing two to four million they're always in a town of under 20,000 you bet and they're just they just own the town and in fact I tell them you're not even the dentist anymore you're the mayor you know of the town so um so I'm really um so this call tracking I just I just have a hard time talking to someone about how their marketing is doing when they can't even tell me how many people call their office yeah they're 57 and they can't tell me so call tracking 

Guest: so a dedicated phone number on every piece on your website on your direct mail on your Facebook you know ads whatever it is you're doing and when you have a dedicated phone number there you can track the results all of the incoming calls right back to your product is dashboard and zebra you know we can we then listen to those calls you know we talked earlier about scoring those calls and about providing that front desk conversion we have an amazing tool in zebra it's called the what-if calculator and you don't have to spend an additional penny on marketing to drive considerable additional revenue and production to the practice all you need to do is answer more calls live and convert more calls at the desk you know so you can see how you know the industry averages for call answering conversion rates you can see what the top 10% percent of dentists are doing in terms of call answer and conversion rates but if you can just answer more calls and convert more calls you don't need to spend one more penny on marketing and you can drive them amount of Revenue so you know that what if calculator is a pretty cool tool to connect

Howard:  I just found out zebras are white with black stripes we solve that my mom my mother who raised to Catholic nun says that's why God made Google that's all right 83 she says that three times a day that's my subtle zebra references that are she's Canadian so I know there's there's beer in that much so so so you are a big fan of culture I gotta tell ya I'm gonna throw one of my friends under the bus in Phoenix Arizona but he's one of the most successful lawyers in the world and I every time I go I'm in Maine in Arizona and every time I go to lunch them I say dude how do you do it you must be a genius because your television has the 1-800 number the Billboard has the 1-800 number though the radio has the 1-800 number I mean call me call me brain-dead but how the hell would you know if that money was coming from the Billboard the TV or the yellow pages how would you 

Guest:well you know it's funny you've hit on something there Howard and it's attribution and to your point how do you know unless you have dedicated call numbers on the piece you know that being said attribution is a tricky business you can send a direct mail piece with a dedicated call number but patients aren't necessarily gonna call from that direct mail piece they may receive that piece and this is where it gets back to the complication of the patient journey they need receive that direct mail piece and go to your website do some further research on your website and call from that number so you know attribution is something that's you know in back to Wayne's point about the synergistic approach to marketing I like to look at the overall impact that marketing is having with the practice yes you can disseminate as much as possible and look at the individual channels and ROI but what is ring you know practice production what is that you know it is the revenue on a steady incline is the new patient flow you know active you know are are you are you success is overall results of the practice you know successful in moving in the right direction zebras that closest you're gonna get in the market to finding true attribution on every single marketing piece you know after that you know if your buddy is doing well with this one 800-number and multiple channels and he's highly visible and it's driving production at the end of the day you know that's what's important I want to go back to your dashboard so first of all if she's working at Aston right now and she's thinking about having her own is there any practice Ranger system you like more than the others

Howard:  okay so one so on this dashboard what you're doing is saying okay since my open dental isn't hooked up to QuickBooks Pro with that you decided you know you're not gonna fix Quicken and you're not gonna fix open dental so you're just pulling numbers so so you think a middle you call it a middleware where you're just pulling numbers from other deals to make a dashboard how many um how many numbers are you pulling for and how how sophisticated do you think she needs to be to do our marketing or do you think that it's something they should outsource where it's just too damn sophisticated because what I'm trying to do is help my homies in Arizona what we're ground zero for DSOs because Arizona passed a law that said if you're a dentist license in any other state you can come here you know to pass boards again nurses doctors accountants all the stuff so 18.6% of the dentist in Arizona work for a DSO and when you look at the distribution line there's five seats it's not even one percent so this is ground zero so in Arizona that dentists across the street is part of you know and most dsos are not a thousand location Heartland Aspen Pacific most DSOs are under 30 locations and ten of their offices are doing great ten are doing okay ten are losing there but which is what you would exceed in any expansion so I'm 57 so I lived through four economic expansions and contractions I graduate high school nineteen eighty that was the biggest contraction graduating doodling eighty seven Black Monday was eighty seven contraction then the y2k March of 2000 and lean Wednesday and during this next contraction one third of all those DSO offices are going to be liquidated because during an expansion private equity is just throwing money at you but when they turn off the faucet and you're losing money you're not getting free cash and that's called the business cycle and Joseph shooting there got a Nobel price for the business cycle and the business cycle isn't going away because monkeys without tails are making all the decisions on earth and after about 10 years of monkey decisions the tide goes out to sea and you get to see who's swimming with no swimsuit on so when the but until the tide goes out and about a third of these DSOs are liquidated my guy has to compete with the dental office across the street that is five to twenty locations and they got a girl like you they got they got someone in HR they got someone in legal and they got someone in marketing and so she's got to wear five different hats but her little marketing hat that she only wears maybe I don't know there's a hundred and sixteen hours in a week I bet you don't think about it three hours a week she's got to compete with someone like you guys who are thinking about this 24/7 so can she compete with that DSO wearing five hats or does she need the CD that were the firm 

Guest:so you know Howard I just came back from a great session with dr. Chris fells you know he's with the Phelps Institute he talked about you know planning dental office planning for 2020 and we talked about the DSO movement he calls it the tsunami you know the Sudan still coming in to your point who knows what's gonna happen when the equity dries up and obviously they're growing through acquisition but not necessarily at the practice growth level so they're gonna have some challenges there to moving forward but you know Chris Phelps was talking about the fact that how do you stop a tsunami and the way you can stop a tsunami is by becoming the mountain you know you need to stop it in its tracks and you can do that by putting up barriers and one of the greatest barriers is your branding your marketing you know and how you can differentiate yourself and your service offering from you know what the DSOs are typically doing so there's a lot of ways that you can build up your practice to compete you know with this you know tsunami in terms of the DSOs and for sure you know marketing is one of those things finding the differentiating refining that servicing model making it a special environment it's not just about getting new patients in the door it's about how you know the experience they have once they're in your dental office do they feel special are you treating them you know differently are you explaining or you know what's your  conversion rate on your on your you know not just your calls but on your treatment plans you know right through Doc's create that loyalty loop what are you doing in between appointments once that patients out the door they're gonna be inundated by those DSOs offering whatever they're offering a lower price or you know and you need to be in your patients homes and in their email boxes in between inboxes between appointments reminding them that the dentist's their dentist cares about them you know one of the reasons patients leave practice is one of the biggest reasons is indifference you know it has nothing to do with anything else other than the fact that there's another opportunity and they don't think they're done just cares so you've got a you know strengthen that loyalty loop with in between appointment communication as well but to answer your question they can definitely compete against that tsunami they just need to build their walls and become that mountain let that tsunami go around them and it'll die in the end and 

Howard: what will die out in the end well possibly to your point when that equity dries up and you know that well yeah I mean I mean think about this I mean I'm I'm actually I know a lot of people don't like to talk about their age I loved being 57 and my four boys have turned into five grandkids and so I had four boys for my five grandkids are boys I do feel sorry for the little girl because I I don't think she's ever done a girl thing in her life less than I saw her we shot a  wild boar and I'm sitting there thinking Judy being a Barbie cart or something I mean we got afraid of Herbert anyway so I am you know when I get out don'ts 1987 there was a there was a dental supply house on every corner and then consolidated down to just patterson and shine and Burkhart and Ben Co and then indeed consolidates again I got a dental in 87 40 years ago and there was a thousand brewing companies that consolidated it all down to Budweiser and Coors and now it's D consolidated so the business cycle of expansion contraction consolidating to D consulting is just what humans do it's a dance they do and they're always going to do this dance and the DSOs are they're so full of I mean none of them can go public they always say oh we don't want to go public did you'd sell your mom for a million dollars if you could don't  tell me that you don't take Wall Street money because you're just a sacred cow you don't take Wall Street money because they wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole there's only two publicly traded is in Australia 1 300 smiles pacific smiles there's only one in china it's actually Singapore tasty i'm but they can't go public because everybody remembers orthodontic centers of America on nasdaq a billion dollar valuation the whole damn thing imploded and now they're seeing what happens when smiles direct club and that funny you know when I get out of school a big screen TV was five thousand bucks and me and Wayne and Karen couldn't lift it if we had ahead now it's five hundred dollars hangs on the wall three times better so smiles direct club came out and said oh my god we can just oral scan this no AI will do the diagnose we don't need to orthodontist will tell you from 6500 to 2500 and man the orthodontist got together they've sued them from every state every angle and it's like I'm looking at orthodontic centers of America I'm looking at how they treat smiles directly because God forbid you make ortho one third the price for poor people I mean that's just not gonna happen in our country and so so the DSOs are there they  have so much they have problems they're you know they have problems for you know they're just too big they're too big of a legal target but they do some things well they get better locations they get better marketing they all have a call center I mean I mean Aspen Dental Bob Fontana I had dinner with him the other night he just opened up a new call center in Chandler I mean it's bigger than five of my dental offices and he spends a hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars a day to generate fifteen thousand new patient incoming calls to that call center where every person answering that phone is trained to convert that incoming call to a but in the chair and then I'm looking at my dentist across street every time I call him to go drink and he's like can you please hold and then all phone call oh my god so so the cold Tracking's got to get more sophisticated what percent of dentists can tell you this is I'm now January 27 so for the first month of January how many dentists can tell you how many calls went to voice mail 

Guest:it's not just calls that are coming in but how what percentage did you answer live and what percentage do you convert to a new patient appointment those are things you can control you know you can that you can train your staff to the same level that ask the dental can train their staff to you know the opportunity to take control of your practice 

Howard: I mean it's in your you say trade him would you like what do you do that do you recommend the scheduling Institute you just recommended Chris Phelps he's with um call tracker ROI is that is that what you recommend or

Guest: our goose yeah he's got a Golden Goose as well but you know Wayne go ahead so our tool you know obviously I mean that's part of our success is our client success so we have great account managers that handle a set number of clients and literally you know the Account Manager becomes their best friend so the account manager is going to work with the team on training we've got videos we've got your

Howard:  best friend alcoholics ready to hang out with me and you know

Guest: Howard I mean you've met some patient news team members you know meetings etc we get you know clients that come into the into our booth and it's hugs and kisses for everyone I mean that's the house draw and those relationships are with that Account Manager it's unbelievable so anyhow that Account Manager is gonna work with the front desk team and making sure that you know they're trained to the best of their ability but the thing is you've got a measure you've got a measurement of success to start with so you've got a baseline of the number of calls that you're answering a baseline of the conversion rates so that you can measure against that whether you're improving and how each actually right times lead the front desk person by name how well they're doing because sometimes the you know the you know the pain points might be with just one person at the front desk so you can focus your training just on that person you don't have to train the person who's converting 78% of their calls but you better focus your activities if someone's converting thirty five percent of your calls because that's you know that's that's money that you know you're not realizing

Howard:  so um I really like the scheduling institute because he was when he started that thing two three decades ago it was unique it was not to me to me he knew all the hydrogens from the hydrogen school mice is in JAMA to the Apollo College I mean everybody I went to dental school and the receptionist was just trained off the street I mean they just pick her up off the street they never trained them how do you get because all the money I invest in you is basically I better hope I find really motivated patients dying to get in because I know when you do marketing and they call your office and any other business it's called a lead but my homies don't know it's a lead and they don't they don't know it's a fly ball they need to catch say they just think you know it's your duty to convince me to find an appoint you know you call them up when said for I'd like to come in today I don't give a what you want I'm an I'm so how do you how do you train the staff to close these leads because I know you'll generate a ton of leads I just know at DSOs that they don't let new patient calls go to their offices at Aspen they go to a call center and they want one manager monitoring seven incoming calls otherwise it they won't close them so I mean when I go back to do a root canal I've left the universe for an hour I mean you're in there like you know like Stevie Wonder picking a walk for an hour trying to fill these canals and you have no concept of what time it is you don't even care and when you're done you look up the clock like damn man or that hour just went by like that so you don't know what your receptionists was doing on the phone for an hour you don't know what she was saying you're not recording the calls you're not measuring the conversion so how do you get from just complete blind faith in your receptionist and the blind face should be that she is embezzling from you and she's not closing calls so how do you fix that 

Guest:the number one recommendation for the team at the front desk is ask for the appointment you'd be amazed we listen to calls you know the types of information and the communication we'll have some patients calling saying you know do you do tooth whitening and we'll get an answer like yes but it's expensive like it's crazy what's there so  this is the you know when you're listening to the calls you know there's no guesswork involved it's not just a mystery call why 

Howard: don't you ought to do you ought to take the craziest calls and send them to me I will do I Howard fees we'll just we'll just push out a follow up deal of the craziest phone calls that you recorded because I got that from mine they asked my girl answering the phone twenty years is how we're doing visiting um you know he used to but he doesn't do that anymore because I switched from the brand to an on branch still a clear aligner that question you know 

Guest:when you're listening to every call not just a mystery call or not just one or two calls to get a feel for it but when you're listening to every inbound patient call you can start to see the patterns and the challenges that the client you know that the  practice is facing you know we do a word cloud you know we also use a I so we're listening live you know human beings listening and scoring those calls but we also use artificial intelligence so you know there's a word cloud you know that you can see for every call that we'll just highlight you know potential challenges within the call we also do you know missed call alerts instant alerts if to call hasn't you know been picked up we also do missed opportunity alerts so if you Howard phone the dentist and you don't book that appointment our AI identifies that and immediately contacts the dentist and says hey Howard just called but he didn't booked an appointment I don't know what happened but you better listen to that you may be able to save it so there's missed call notifications there's missed opportunity notifications and every single call is scored there's no guesswork and in terms of the train aspect yeah we have some tools you know we definitely have some scripts we have some videos but you know what sometimes it even takes more than that and there's lots of great partners out there too there's you know front office rocks there's you know to your point a bunch of other you know consultants that really focus on that aspect so you know don't  leave that wanting you know that would be my advice 

Howard: so when you're talking about when you built practice zebra you talked about business intelligence are you were you did you start getting a Python programmer and is this artificial intelligence I mean would you do that business intelligence is this actually AI with Python and all that

Guest: yeah so the first thing we did Howard is we went and hired a world-class CTO who came out of a business intelligence environment we've got five full time full stack developers and that's amazing so he controls this team like an orchestra I mean I half the time I don't know what he's talking about but at the end of the day he can take the input Lamar the advisor team that we have so it's world-class dentists practice management consultants that are providing input on on practice zebra and he can make it happen 

Howard: my grandchildren dances like grandpa said well grandpa wouldn't be a dentist he'd be a part a I teacher he'd be me go learn Python because I firmly believe it's obvious that the only thing I mean you know math apply math is physics applied physics chemistry applied chemistry biology applied by I'm biology and so the Earth's 5 billion years old biology is only half a billion years old and humans only showed up the last 50,000 years and our only purpose was the transition to droids and right now all the outside of the atmosphere everything's non-human you got Voyager yet Mars so all homo sapien was this little blip to go from biological animal to a flying a idroid because you with your little natural intelligence and opposing thumb is going to be no match to artificial intelligence and I've seen five thousand years of natural intelligence and I know that can be improved about twenty what drill e'en percent and the and I tell you young kids that being on top of this game five years ago nobody talked about AI but now you go to Glidewell and instead of having a human read the incoming impression they're having AI read it and it's kicking out the end present the AI can read that thing plus or minus four microns your monkey eyes fifty microns you know you're on Delta you talk to Delta and now instead of the you send an x-ray for a root canal they're having a I read it because they just busted some chick in San Diego that's sitting in the same x-ray eighty nine times for a thousand-dollar root canal now she's looking at ten years in jail because her natural intelligence thought she was smarter than her iPhone I know my iphone smarter than me there's only one thing I'm smarter than my iPhone you know when you send your mom attacks and then like five hours later it's it was never sent I mean come on come on smartphone sitting there five hours really it's only cost as hundreds of thousands of dollars yeah and those in I'll tell you what I heard and the more I hear them getting cussed out the more I'm telling everybody to do it I'm sitting there at what dental company it was in Israel and they're like can you believe that guy we got five dentists on staff and then AI guy makes twice as much as them well dabs and then the five dentists should go back to night school I went to night school and become an MBA and I I just wish but anyway tell your grandkids it's all ai it's gonna change the world it wasn't in dentistry five years ago and now it's all over a dental insurance it's all over crown and bridge and how are you specifically using AI in zebra is it like does it hold like the flyswatter and bats the flies or a whole bunch of information

Guest: so we've already talked about how we're using it with the cull tracking and scoring because phrase recognition and just analyzing you know the hundreds of thousands and millions of calls that you know that we've recorded over the years it can learn from that but the other thing that teams working on right now is looking at when patients are at writing like what's causing them to it or what are they one of the trading when do they stop coming to the practice 

Howard: did you say a trading at writing at write international listeners when she says process she means process that says hi Gianna it's just a mark bitch right and what was that one what was that word you say nutrition nutrition okay that's right I've never heard that when patients at right okay oh that one that one you flew over my head anyway patient attrition which is we know is equal every time you give them a new patient one comes off the chair because they've never increased their capacity ever it's kind of like a dental office is a cup of coffee and you just been pouring coffee in it for 40 years and the coffee is all running down all over the table because when one person comes in the front door another goes out the back door or you would have increased your capacity and added another chair another hygienist and you'd have made more money so we know we know they're flatline yeah

Guest: yes lots of information we can look at and lots of information that you know Michael and his development team are looking at right now that I probably can't speak intelligently about but you know they can look at attrition levels by provider they can look at attrition levels by reappointment percentage so I mean if you're not able to connect with these patients X number of times before that six month period you know is that triggering them so what are the communication Cadence's you need to develop to minimize attrition you know who do you need to train with in your team to minimize attrition I mean that's your lifeblood you know the same way that we try to maximize our lifetime value with our clients you know a patient is worth between four and seven thousand dollars you know how do you maximize that lifetime value you know we've already talked about natural attrition there's gonna be a component or your patients that are going to move away they're going to die but there's that other 85% of your patient base that you need to make sure you're getting them in every six months for their reak air they're maximizing you know your elective services you can't sell elective services if you don't get somebody in for reak air you need to see them you need to be able to get that opportunity to you know diagnose them and I think until the next major contraction

Howard:  I think you're going to still have a lot of money throwing it on these on DSOs because they do not I mean they're already okay so the bottom line was so white  why do I keep saying this and why do I know it be true well number one when you're 57 there's got to be some advantages to diabetes and erectile dysfunction and all these things like that and it's its experience and the bottom line is I'm there saying it all the time cash is trash why because in 5,000 years recorded history you always want to held the same hand has a super power during gold during Rome's time you want to be in gold and silver it's very well your superpower America has 19 trillion dollars in paper debt so what do they want to do they want to cash his trash they're there they want to run a trillion dollar a year deaf - - for to deflate it out of there if I owe you a dollar and I can go print $2.00 I just you know I just cut your dollar in half so they're gonna depreciate that the cash we have a big expansion going on now it'll be followed with a contraction and and why do you dentist always do good because  when you work with your hands you have value when you're a welder a carpenter or a dentist dentists are all surgeons we won't be replaced with AI because you know you go to the emergency room right now when you go in the military when you go in a submarine a billion-dollar nuclear-powered Trident submarine and it goes under for six months on their mission then they're not coming up because Karen has a doctor's appointment no and you're down there with AI and the AI is they say is as good as an emergency room physician but we're surgeons we're working with their hands retail anything that can be transferred in a package at Amazon is getting slaughtered if you if you drove across Phoenix Arizona you'd think the number one franchise and and Phoenix was space available and it's just because Amazon's blowing everybody out of there if it comes in a packet dentists are safe I need to give you a shot I need to work with my hand I'm a welder carpenter all-in-one and these guys that think they're all gonna make money off well I'm a dentist but I'm just gonna make money on other people doing the dentist good luck with that man because the patient's don't like going to the dentist they don't like getting hurt by a shot they might not like you your assistant your receptionists like five different people in there that she might not like and never come back and you might have been the best in instant world but she didn't like the receptionist hygienist the assistant and quite frankly I'm the dentist I know it's never the dentist I mean when people say they hate the dentist that's just short for I hate the dental assistant they've never they never actually meant to Dennis so the bottom line the bottom the bottom line is I dentists are gonna do good but you're wearing too many hats dude and one last piece of Isis dentists in 1900 there was only one specialty and he delivered your baby and amputated your leg and now it's 58 MD specialties and tenon dentistry so to go out there and think that you're going to be a jack of all trade and master root canals and TMJ and endo and all SF is completely delirious and it's the same thing in business if you think you're going to be a dentist and know the difference between a statement of cash flow a balance sheet nurse and and your three accounting deals and know all your numbers and have a flair for marketing and have a flair for leadership and I mean you're I mean there's only one Bruce Wayne and we're talking to him right now and he's the one on the right you can't be everything dude so if you're if you want to get sophisticated build a family network of referrals so that when someone comes in say I got a pediatric dentist for that no I'm not gonna retreat a root canal I got it I got a ended on us for that and if you think that you're gonna be smarter doing it all you're gonna be wrong you know who the millionaires are their conductors their back is to the audience and if they need a drummer they're not gonna go learn how to be a drummer they gotta hire a drummer they need a violin who's gonna sit there and play the violin every day they hire a violinist and the millionaire you you didn't go learn Pythagoras you hired a CTO and you got inside programmers who probably don't have enough personality to become an accountant let enough to be a dentist and you know you you hire those people 

Howard: so uh millionaires build teams and and people who are going back to 1900 are trying to do everything themselves to your point not all of these dsos and corporates are massive organizations you know we do work with a lot of clients and we kind of have a nation that you know to practice 220 practice you know doesn't have a potential necessarily to want to get bigger than that but you know they can be very effective organizer they're more a little bit more you know obviously they can have a strong brand and some local branding and community so don't want to be dissing those you know cuddle I'm sorry that that was my fault I should not call DSO or group as I just called Lera management so whenever I see group practice that's what I call group practice group practices I was in a small town of a hundred thousand Southside I went ahead and put offices on the north east west and then I could hire five people I could have a Karen do HR I could have Bruce Wayne do marketing I could have you I could have one flat layer and they make everybody more money more efficiency that it's awesome it's that second layer so that that's happening in like say Arizona but now I got a second level I wanna see where they're at in Effingham Illinois or above Fontan or whatever and they need and private equity and they need another 14% are you me lab in supplies isn't 14% so I see no scales of economy in level two thus that's why none of them are on the Nasdaq or the Wall Street Journal and the only reason private equity is buying that stuff is because they know the stocks are a bubble they know the u.s. bond markets a bubble how they know cash is trashed and they're seeing a dental office with 35% oh they're seeing a 15% net profit on it all so it just it's not that dentistry looks good it just looks less disastrous and anything else thing and by its like why is the United States the reserve currency and well there's 200 countries at the bar and they're all drunk but when it's time to go home the US dollar is the least drunk I mean you're not gonna give it to China you're not gonna give it to the EU you're not gonna give it the British pound couldn't even cover the daily volume if it was all traded out so the bottom line is um I think group practice is far more successful as long as it's one layer management and I started group practice day one just because I was lonely hell I just walked out of dental school I was all by myself I didn't even have one person to say look at that extra Ain't It Cool and I was so damn dumb did I hire a 65 year-old dentist has been around the block for 40 years - - why oh no I hired I hired a kid just as young and Bob Savage I mean - 25 year old kids why cuz that was fun when I thought of hiring Bob I just instantly giddy I'm like I got a buddy and but if you're 25 what's that dear listeners know Bob Savage I don't know he's a dentist up the street but he weren't with me for seven years and it was just fun so group is more fun when I see Dentist having fun they're always in group when I see it Dennis eating vicodin and drinking Listerine he's almost always by himself okay so group is more fun and a group of groups with one layer management one present one HR 1 accountant one legal one marketing they're crushing it but when they go to the second level of management where now they have a national headquarters that needs 14 to 17 cents off the dollar now it's laughable and comical and I don't even know if you're trying to pitch that with a straight face because it don't work at any level 

Guest:so how are practice zebra is fun for groups - the reason being they can see the results of every single one of their office locations within the platform so you can see which of your offices is outperforming you know which office needs assistance and where so you know you get that full enterprise solution - you know for those groups of 2 to 20 it's a beautiful thing and

Howard:  I've also noticed it really pulls out the competition because some of my friends are like that they're like no I ain't going to lunch man it's like it's like it's like the 27th of the month man I got three days to beat Wayne he's got two more fillings or three more crowns or five more dollars and my god the last five days is like all they're gonna do is make sure they're number one and their group of like you know 13 dentist and three locations or four oh okay so yeah i think i think group is fun I prefer group it's also good when something happens like I just had Dennis fall down roller blower skating fell down rollerskating and hurt himself and couldn't work for a while I mean so happens hey I've been big fans of piece of news and Karen and Wayne I can vouch for him absolutely dental town cookouts form I know you had better things to do tonight then come talk to my homies but Karen galley Bruce Wayne Lavery thank you so much for coming on the show today and talking to my homies it was an honor to podcast you both 

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