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Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran
Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran
How to perform dentistry faster, easier, higher in quality and lower in cost. Subscribe to the podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dentistry-uncensored-with-howard-farran/id916907356
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1314 Dr. Gamer Verdian on New Tech, Business Models & Stress Management : Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

1314 Dr. Gamer Verdian on New Tech, Business Models & Stress Management : Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

12/16/2019 10:00:00 AM   |   Comments: 0   |   Views: 190
Over the last decade Dr. Verdian has become one of Australia’s leading cosmetic dentist specialising in Facial Aesthetic Design for Smile makeovers and veneers. He has pioneered novel technology utilisation and was one of the first dentists to use 3D Facial Scanning technology to provide lifelike simulations for his patients makeovers and cosmetic dentistry. Dr Verdian has become renowned for providing his patients with natural and lifelike veneers that are specifically designed using Facial Aesthetic Design principles to ensure each patient has veneers suited to their unique facial features. He is commonly sought after to repair and restore smile makeovers and veneers that have been performed poorly, have not stood the test of time and require rehabilitation. He aspires to the ‘”Get it done once, get it done right” philosophy as is evident in his long lasting results.
VIDEO - DUwHF #1314 - Gamer Verdian
AUDIO - DUwHF #1314 - Gamer Verdian


It's just a huge honour for me today to be podcasting interviewing Dr. Gamma Verdien, B-M-E-D-S-E and B-Dent. He has become Sydney's go-to dentist for exceptional dentistry. He has treated numerous Australian celebrities, although he has not treated my brother Paul Foran down the street who is the number one celebrity in my mind and is regularly featured on Channel 7, 9, and Channel 10. Dr. Verdien's articles have appeared in Harper's Bazaar, Grazia, Mamma Mia, New Idea, Women's Day, OK Magazine, Women's Weekly, and Spa Clinics. I'm always seeing this guy on social media, his articles are always flying around on Twitter. Dr. Verdien's principles and philosophies revolve around providing a pain-free or close as possible and caring approach to his patients. As well as utilizing the latest in dental technology with an artistic eye for exceptional long-lasting results for his patients.

Known as having the best eyes in the business, Dr. Verdien is the only dentist in the country that utilizes microscope-enhanced dentistry for all his procedures. Thanks to his meticulous eye for detail, Dr. Verdien is now a world leader in microscope-enhanced dentistry and member of the American Academy, I mean the Academy of Microscope-Enhanced Dentistry, AMED. Dr. Verdien firmly believes that having the ability to magnify and work on a tooth up to 20 times larger allows for a level of dentistry that is unmatched; from early diagnosis of potential catastrophic conditions to repairing decaying teeth with perfectly molded fillings to performing ultra-refined cosmetic dentistry. That kind of detail makes the world of difference when you're doing implants, ultra-fine cosmetic dentistry, and laser dentistry. Over the last decade, Dr.

Verdien has become one of Australia's leading cosmetic dentists, specializing in facial aesthetic design for smile makeovers and veneers. He has pioneered novel technology utilization as one of the first dentists to use 3D facial scanning technology to provide lifelike simulations for his patients' makeovers in cosmetic dentistry. He has become renowned for providing his patients with natural and lifelike veneers that are specifically designed using facial aesthetic design principles to ensure each patient has veneers suited to their unique facial features. He is commonly sought after to repair and restore smile makeovers, veneers that have been performed poorly, have not stood the test of time, and require rehabilitation. He aspires to get it done once, get it done right philosophy as is evident in his long-lasting results. Dr.

Verdien has lectured and presented at numerous conferences and most recently at the Cosmetic Practitioners Summit, speaking to not only dentists but plastic surgeons and other cosmetic practitioners. Dr. Verdien is a professor of plastic surgery at the University of Australia and the University of New York. Dr. Verdien's leisure hours are often spent working on his iPad, doing digital smile designs hours. When not practicing dentistry, he will often be found on a basketball court running or practicing his grave magus, crab magus skills. What is a crab magus skill? It is a type of self-defense, Howard, and sorry it's such a long intro. No, it's a great intro, but when you said you've been published everywhere and lecture everywhere, I'm hoping someday you'll honor us with an honor. I'm hoping we can do it.

We have a new online CE course on Dentaltown. We put up four hundred one-hour courses and they've been viewed almost a million times; I would love. I've used them. Will you do that? You'll commit? Absolutely. On Dentistry Uncensored, we will hold him to his fire. So, first of all, I've got to look at you. You're an amazing man. What even led you to become a dentist? I mean, I can see you doing a dozen different things. Why dentistry out of everything that you could have done? So, growing up, I've been doing a lot of things. powered I had two dreams right one was I grew up in the Michael Jordan era I was to

be a basketball player and the other was to be some sort of a surgeon and as I got a bit older facial surgery was what sort of really caught my eye so I took basketball as far as I could I got a basketball scholarship at Sydney University but I just wasn't good enough to to make the pros or the NBA so then I concentrated on my other passion and in Australia to do facial surgery you maxilla facial surgery you have to do dentistry followed by medicine and then you enter the intern and residency and surgical training programs but once you finish dentistry you have to do two years in private practice before you can get into medicine and in those two years I really really just fell in love with basketball

being a dentist it was uh just such an incredible career um so once i once once the decision was made uh that was it for me and something that really got me in those two years was um uh just interacting with patients and and having a wide variety of treatment Options which is what you can't really do when you specialize, uh, and then the other was, um, microscopes. It's just there's just something about it that, um, really was in tune with my personality and, uh, I got fired up, and it's been a journey ever since. So, who was your favorite basketball legend? Was it Michael Jordan? Definitely Michael Jordan. You know, not to uh get distracted, but, um, but Michael Jordan and Charles Barkley. I have to tell you, um, they made bald cool before...

before the because I, I grew up a little bit more, I grew up a little bit more, I grew up a little bit more, I grew up a little bit more. I lost my hair in high school, and, um, so the chicago bulls were playing the phoenix suns and charles barkley was the star of the suns and jordan was the star of the deals two gorgeous bullheaded men and they played seven games and that after that series bold instantly went to cool now if you weren't bald you might not have noticed it but i mean before that series people were always trying to do comb overs and wigs and after that series men with

good hair were shaving their head so they they made bald uh cool but you know that was 93 yeah that was in 1993 good great series and and uh we should have won but our uh our forward guard uh got um got in trouble um during the game Wasn't wasn't able to play all the games, uh, Dumas that was, uh, Duke, yeah, yeah, I remember playing with Candy on the side and didn't get a sad deal. But but you said something very profound about the microscope. I mean, we're at the end of the day, we're Homo sapiens, and we can only see 50 microns. So the fastest way to increase your quality is to wear loops or a magnification that's why I like scanning an impression just so I can see it 40 times bigger on a screen.

So do you agree that anytime you can magnify something it's gonna increase the quality? Absolutely, I think it's one of the routine questions I ask a younger dentist. Is are you using any magnification? And if they say to me it's four or five times that's big thumbs up with what they're using. And if they say no, it's a bit of a red flag because, because the you know teeth are so small right, and and and you know when you are looking after a tooth every bit of enamel or dentine really matters. So if you can see it at a at a bigger size, it makes such a big difference. And I started with loops, you know, I got my two and a half in uni, and then as soon as I graduated I got my five times uh loops which I thought were the best thing ever.

And then you know it's sort of sort of like dental photography. You get, you get hooked and you just want more and more and more, and uh, it led me to microscopes. Well, you know, dental photography. Um, you know people always want to talk about should I buy a CBCT or a laser, and I think dental photography is the best thing because I see people all the time flying into Phoenix to have dentistry done that I know from some small town they're from, and there's some guy there that can do it better than anyone. Um, but you go to his website, and there's no photography of their own work, and I say, well, why? Why did you come all the way from El Paso to Phoenix?

And they say, well, this guy; look at all the the work he's done, and that's His own work and then you call back that other guy and he's got a he's got a house and he's got a house and he's got a house and he's got a house. He's got $100,000 laser, he's got $100,000 CBCT, he's got $100,000 CAD CAM. It's like, dude, you need... you need a what? What camera would you recommend because I tell people you need magnification and a digital camera at day one, absolutely. Um, and I saw your post on Dentaltown about how um, on Dentaltown, you're talking about um, hooking a um um an intraoral uh, camera to an iPad, yeah, yeah, you know? If you know, you know; if you know you know If you have iPads, it's pretty cool to use, right?

But you just can't get, and you won't believe this, Howard: there is no internal camera that connects to an iPad through Bluetooth. So they all just do it through Wi-Fi. So it makes it very difficult to use, you know, if you want to take photos. So right now what we have to do is use our digital camera, send it through to Dropbox, then open it on Dropbox on the iPad. If only there was a simpler way. On Dentaltown, Howard, I actually had an account that sort of crashed. I think it was called GB1, and I used it religiously almost daily for about five or six years when I first graduated; it was a godsend. You know, every day you'd go into dentistry and you'd have a million and one questions about what you did on that day, especially in the first two to three years.

How do you spell it? Just J-B-O-N-E? J-B-O-N-E. No, I think my handle was G-V-1. G-V? Oh, G-V. Yeah, G-V-1 back then. G-V, numeral one? Yes. Huh. But good. I'm glad it – Yeah, but then I made one with my full name about two or three years ago. So these – what year did you get out of school? I graduated in 2007. So 2007. The one thing I've noticed, I've been going down to – I did an Australian tour all the time where I would fly at Ruth Port from Port Macquarie to Port Macquarie. Her and her late husband, George, would bring me down, and I would do Auckland, New Zealand, Melbourne, Sydney, Gold Coast, Perth, Adelaide. You know, I'd do five, six cities, and I'd do that every five years, 90, 95, 2000, all that.

But all of a sudden, Australia, they gave license to a lot of foreign-trained dentists. They opened up a lot of dental schools. So when I went down there, the problem – when I started going down to Australia, every dentist was booked a month in advance. Yeah. And that was their only problem. And now, it's – the pendulum swung the other way. It's very competitive. So you graduated 2007. That's about the beginning of the really competitive scenario. So what do you say to kids that are – Yeah. Coming out of dental school, and they say, 'Ah, when Howard graduated, you know, it was so much easier than now.' You graduated in a much more competitive environment than anyone sees in America right now. I've seen both of those countries side-by-side for 30 years.

You're in the most competitive dental market that I've seen in the rich, industrialized world. Nobody is that competitive. Not Singapore, nothing. So how do you – so do you agree? Do you agree it's a very competitive environment? Absolutely. So I actually was – saw it all happen, Howard, right? So when I graduated, we had 60 dental students in my year. And we had pretty much one dental school in our state. And there was about four or five dental schools in the country. And they were all graduating between 30 to 60 dentists. Then the government realized that dentistry is well-served in the capital cities, but it's very, very – very poorly served in rural and remote areas. So they came up with this policy of graduating and accepting much more overseas dentists.

And that has ballooned now to where, in our state, there's two to three dental schools now, and they graduate around 300 to 400 students a year. And then we've got more dental schools elsewhere, and then we're getting a pretty good influx from other countries as well. So, yeah, I've seen it. It is hyper, hyper, hyper. It's hyper competitive. So the advice I would give, I think the government has done a pretty smart job. And something to consider when you're pretty young is to go to more rural locations. You know, it'd be much easier to find a job where you can do a lot more different types of dentistry. Whereas if you're trying to find a position in Sydney, it can be quite challenging, especially for a full-time position.

So, you know, really good practice. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, I agree with your statement, Howard. There's, there's, there's, there's a lot to do. So what advice, so what advice would you give to a young kid? How would you define your practice? And first of all, logistics-wise, I have two websites for you. I have dentallounge.com.au, and I have dental99.com.au. And I assume that the AU stands for Australia, not gold, you know, right? So what's the difference between Dental Lounge and Dental 99? So Dental Lounge is a, you know, we're sort of a full-service type of dental practice. We're over three levels in the CBD or downtown Sydney on a, on a pretty sort of prestigious medical street. We have nine dentists that work for us with associated support staff.

Uh, we, you know, uh, we do everything there. Um, and Dental 99 is a, is a, is a sort of a different type of business. It's very tech-based and, uh, it's a bit more of a limited service offering with a, uh, fixed pricing model attached to it. Which means what? Uh, so, you know, at Dental 99, we only do four dental procedures, which are checkups and cleans, fillings, um, uh, simple extractions, and toothache management appointments. Dental 99 only does four procedures or four, what do you call them? Four procedures. Yeah. Wow, I've never seen this. Four procedures. And what is it? Cleaning? Cleaning, fillings, simple extractions and toothache management appointments. So we get you out of pain. And this model, Howard, was designed to serve, uh, in Australia. We've got a real issue.

We're about 25-30% of the population doesn't have, does not access, uh, private dentistry and our public dental systems are pretty overwhelmed. Uh, so we've created this model, um, uh, with the Dental 99 app, uh, to, to, to serve those people and, and serve people who are generally concerned about the price of, uh, dentistry, um, in the country. That is amazing. Are, are you, did you, um, steal that model from someone else? Is this unique? Very unique. Uh, we, um, I, I actually did a course, uh, with a, a business partner of mine in, um, at a Harvard Business School, believe it or not, on, on disruption with Clayton Christensen, who was the, you know, father of disruption theory.

And, and we looked at, um, dentistry after doing that course, uh, and we thought, what could we do, uh, to, to sort of do what Netflix did to play dentistry? Blockbuster or, or, um, you know, Uber to the car industry, transport industry. And, and, and, and that's, uh, and that's where Dental 99 came from. That is so amazing. So, all of your treatments at Dental 99 are because they're $99. Yes. That's just crazy. And, and how is that, um, how's it working? Fantastic. So we, we, uh, developed the apps for Dental 99. It took about three and a half years to develop. Uh, and the only way this model is rigged is six going to be successful is, is by using the Dental 99 apps.

Uh, so, uh, and that's replaced all the manpower or a lot of the manpower that we will see in a traditional dental practice. So, uh, uh, any Dental 99 practice, there is no reception. You, you download the Dental 99 app, you check in with the app, uh, and, and, and, and, and, and you, um, um, um, wait for your procedure and all your x-rays, clinical photos, everything is transferred to you through the app and you book your own appointments. That is, that is just crazy. Crazy. Yeah, we're very excited about it. Well, how long has, how long has it been up and running? So three and a half years in development, five months in operation. And so, um, now are these, um, partner dentists?

Are they, are they, are they, are they, are they, are they, are they, are they, are they, are they, are they, are they, are they, are they, are they, are they, are they, are they, or do you have employees working for you in this? How, how does this work? So we've started with, uh, employee dentists with us. So we've got, um, uh, currently we have two practices about to expand to five. Uh, but then we are now, um, finding partners, uh, that'll go in with us and, and we work together with, uh, you know, uh, uh, a smart and successful dentist and, uh, we're opening clinics that way. So we're, we're, we're, we're, you know, expanding. Expanding fairly rapidly. I would.

And, um, you know, what, one of the problems with, um, having a business model that's done by employee dentists is the turnover is incredible. I mean, you know, most of these people that work in these big DSOs, you know, they only stay there for a year or two. And I, I, you see, people, humans, when you study economics, you cannot deny that people need to have skin in the game. And so are you thinking of rolling this out with more, uh, skin in the game or, or what, what is the business? I agree with that completely. I mean, we've had a really, uh, I think we've hired at this point, except an exceptional team, uh, who are really passionate about our cause.

Uh, so we have, you know, and I know we haven't been around for 10 years, so we haven't really had many turnover issues. Uh, but, um, the partner model is, is definitely something. Yeah. That will allow us to expand more rapidly, have people with skin in the game and take ownership of the brand and of their own practices with us. Wow. That is, uh, so interesting. Um, so you think it's going to be a success at this point? I definitely do it, Howard. I, uh, I, everything is pointing in that direction right now. I like any good idea though. Um, the, you know, the execution and stuff. The strategy, uh, is, is much more important, um, to, to get success. Right. That is, uh, my, so in your other office, you have, um, so, so that's Dental 99.

I, I was not, I was not aware that it was, it was that unique. I mean, that is, um, my God, I'm; I'm this, um, podcast is, um, I love it when I'm; uh, the biggest fan of my own show. Um, I learned so much. So you have a; you also. And actually stay tuned, Howard. We want to; we want to bring the model to America soon too. Well, you got a; uh, you know who to call first. Yes. Um, and you know, and; and let me say, um, something that, um, about Australia is that in America, as much as you hear about all this talk, uh, about big, big DSOs like Heartland and Pacific and all that stuff, none of them are publicly traded, uh, to find that you need to go down under to Australia.

The only, uh, publicly traded ones, um, to this day are one 300 smiles, um, with, uh, Dr. Daryl Holmes, founder one 300 smiles. He was podcast, uh, show eight 50. You have Pacific smiles group with Dr. Alex Abrams, uh, episode eight 41. And then the first billionaire in dentistry is, uh, Q and M, uh, Dr. Raymond Ong, because he came out of Singapore and he's racing across rural China. And that market is so big. I mean, the, the reason the United States became so much bigger than its mother country. England is because we have five times as many people. And the reason China will be so big is because they have one in every five people on earth. They have 20% of the world's population.

So, um, so why do you think one, 300Smiles, Pacific Smiles, and Q and M are all publicly traded, but Aspen and Heartland and Pacific Dental, you know, they're, they're not on NASDAQ. They just bounce from one private equity holder to another. Why? Why do you think that is? And even let's go to UK. My dentist has 800 dental offices now. So, so when you were down in Harvard, I'm sure you guys thought about those, uh, the triangle of, uh, my dentist in UK, Aspen, Ireland, and, um, um, you know, in, uh, America and, um, Pacific Dental. So, so what's your thoughts? Why are they publicly traded down under and not in the UK or America? I think if you look at all the models out, you know, Publicly being publicly traded has its advantages, but there's a whole lot of disadvantages to it as well, you know?

Uh, and, uh, uh, I think in Australia, we, we sort of really went for it at a, at an era where, um, aggregation of dental practices, uh, yielded some really good results. And one of the first ones that was done here, it's called dental corporation, um, with a good friend of mine, Ray Corey, and he, uh, aggregated and then ended up, um, you know, on a path to publicly listing, but he was in, he ended up being bought out by Bupa. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, so, uh, I think once that model, once, once people saw the value and the value generation in aggregation of dental practices, we ended up with the One 300 Smiles and the Pacific Smiles groups.

And then, uh, at, at the time, I think IPO was probably the best option to, to, to have, to have a good value returned or return on investment, uh, from having all these dental practices. But recently, we've had one down here that has tanked terribly. It's called the Totally Smiles group, or smiles inclusive. It's called what? It's called... totally smiles. I think they're listed as Smiles Inclusive. Uh, and I believe they are the most poorly performed public company in the last year. Nice. And who was the, uh, who was behind that? Uh, look, it was, it was, there wasn't a, uh, head dentist involved. And I think all the examples you mentioned, uh, and all the successful aggregation of dental practices are usually led by a dentist, which is really important.

And the ones that tend not to do so well are the ones that are led by, uh, non, uh, non-dentists, more corporate types who. Well, they don't understand the dental market as well as you would, if you've worked in it, you know, and, and Dennis, we're all, uh, we're all interesting creatures. And I don't think we're, I think we're very special in certain ways. Uh, and, and being a dentist isn't a, isn't a simple or easy job. And, and you, you need to have good understanding of that dynamic if you are going to, um, corporatize it or round it up. So those examples you showed. Successful. I think that good founders, uh, and good, um, uh, big dentists slash business people, that allows for them to be successful.

So, smiles include, so it's smilesinc.com. Hey, you! Yeah, well, you know, the, the one thing when I said, 'that's awesome.' I'm glad to hear about it. Someone might think, 'well, that's a mean thing to say.' And what, what it really is, is that, um, my, my favorite business mentor, um, has, has always been, um, it's always been Jim Collins. And when I got out of school, he wrote the book, Good to Great. And then he wrote Built to Last and Great by Choice. But my favorite book was How the Mighty Fall, and Why Some Companies Never... Give In. Uh, and you, you know, everybody always wants to hear motivational speakers about well, how do you get to the next level? Well, Newton's Law for every force is an equal force.

Um, compare that positive gain to what's negative. How, how did the, how did the mighty fall and I actually have learned more about how the mighty fall and you already went to on the smiles ink that, I mean, come on, you're, you're in the dental business and, and you're, you didn't have enough time to become a dentist. Wouldn't that be, wouldn't that be kind of, you think the basic foundation is that maybe, maybe I should become a dentist if I'm going to take over the dental industry. And I, I see this because when you're my age, when my four boys have turned into five grandkids, I'm already starting to see. That, you know, I, I'm worried about the transition when I'm gone and I want, and I'm worried about where my grandchildren go to the dentist and I don't want them going to some place owned by an MBA that says, 'Well, 30% of our new patients should need root planing and curettage.'

How about you need root planing and curettage because you have gum disease. How, you know, I mean, I don't want to go to a physician that says, 'Well, 20% of our patients should have chlamydia.' Well, maybe you should only have chlamydia if you have chlamydia. I mean, uh, I, I don't, I do not like. And then you look at the great companies, um, you know, the founding father was the active component. And then as soon as he dies, you start the descent and it's only going to be one, two or three generations. And they're completely gone because just because your grandfather really loved dentistry doesn't mean his son's going to be, I mean, we worked this out in government. It's called nepotism. You can have a great King followed by a guy who's completely aloof and doesn't even care.

So totally different. What went public? We traded and now, um, it's, um, delisted or what, what happened? Yeah, I think they've been in a trading halt for a little while now. Uh, this, the share price was down from a dollar to 6 cents recently. Uh, that's, it's a, I think a colossal case of mismanagement. Um, uh, and, and, and, and, the worst thing is, is just lots of good dentists in there are really suffering right now. A few that I know pretty well, uh, as the, as the company's in a halt. And they're just trying to do good dentistry and they're caught up in this swell of things. Back to your point. How, if there's a saying here, I'm sure it's the same over there.

It's the first generation makes it, the second generation keeps it, and the third generation squanders it in terms of oh my God. Tracy Penn is the executive director. Um, there, do you know Tracy? Yeah, I know; I did not. I hope, uh, no, hopefully I haven't insulted one of your friends. No, no. I mean, uh, fair is fair off to get her on the show to say, um, w what were the lessons learned? Um, how, how did the mighty fall and, uh, that is, uh, that is just amazing and hopefully she'll say, well, we have to meet in person and I'll just fly to Australia and stay with my brother. Uh, but, um, that, that is, that is, uh, amazing. So what was your take on how, why you think they failed?

Uh, I think, um, they went under the assumption that if they aggregated 50 to a hundred dental practices and they combined, uh, they combined, you know, all the backend office stuff that dentists don't want to do like finance, HR and payroll. Um, and then they combined the marketing efforts and put it under a single branded umbrella that that would be enough to be successful. And in this, in our market here in Australia, that is not the case anymore. Uh, you need, um, you know, ah, I think probably, um, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a nationalist. The simplest level they just didn't do enough marketing; they spent so much on everything else, and they didn't build the Totally Smiles brand to where it was a bit more of a household name.

Uh, so that so that you know the revenue spent on building the company was going to reap some rewards. And just do it, huh? Interesting! So let's go back, um, I'll try to uh, 99/99 Smiles. I mean, do you smell like a little revolution here? I mean, is this going to be a um, is this going to be a disruptor? Do you think that you're on to something that's going to be disruptive? Uh, absolutely! And Howard, and we can see from the patients we're getting now uh, how successful it's going to be. So, we're currently just based in Sydney, but we're we're we're next year we'll be opening in nearly every capital city in the country um, but we have people flying in from Brisbane and Melbourne or driving six hours to to come and use the service, you know, from Canberra.

Or other parts of the state, uh, it's, it's pretty remarkable, and, and, if you all you need to do is spend time with a few of our patients to realize how successful we'll be. You know, these are people who have been two years with a with a chronic abscess; they struggle to eat, and, uh, and they've just been so scared of the high fees of a of a traditional dental practice, uh, and then now um, and then, and then we've, we've given them this model which is you know the transparency and the openness and the sharing of information, uh, gives them a lot of comfort, uh, so they're happy to come use our service, uh, and, and, and, so if you talk to a few of these People and how thankful they are at us providing this to them, I think.

I think that I think that'll be that'll be uh all you'll need to know about how successful it's going to be, and the only secret to lower prices is lower costs. Like when Southwest Airlines, you know, they had they were so much lower cost. Well, what did they do? They got rid of meals. Uh, they only flew a Boeing 737. They only flew direct back and forth; they didn't do hub and spoke. Um, I've noticed that, you know, in dentistry the number one cost is always labor, and I've noticed you've um, you've designed out some of the costs by um, um making your, you don't have a, so you don't Have front desk, you can download your free app, you search for an appointment, you book and say 'by paying only $99 per treatment.' Do you do you have to pay $99 to make the appointment?

Yes. So then, so then if they don't show up, they're out 99 bucks. Uh, so if it's out of 24 hours, uh, we're pretty nice about this: if it's out of 24 hours, we um allow them to book another appointment. If it's under 24 hours, we uh charge a $50 cancellation fee. Yeah, Australia's got that uh, that weird Canadian thing going where you're always trying to be nice; Americans would just say you lose.' Well, you know, we're in healthcare, Howard. You know, we gotta look out. For our people, I'm just teasing, you gotta be. I love my nice Canadian friends, uh, when you were saying about, uh, cost cutting out, I mean, I want to bring this up because, you know, we are in health care, Howard, we're in health care, Howard, we're in health care, right?

So there's there's some things you can't cost cut and and I think it's good clinicians and good dental materials and equipment uh but but there's pretty much everything else we've looked at, you know um cost cutting, you know like I said the the app does so much of the man power related stuff which is the biggest cost in a dental practice um and then and then setting up of these Practices is a very unique proposition because we don't need cerex or microscopes or um, you know, really crazy expensive equipment when you say cleanings, fillings, extract; you only do four procedures: cleanings, fillings, extractions, toothache management. What I think of toothache management as an extraction but what, what are you doing, uh, an ind or what?

Yeah, yeah, we'll do an extraction or an extirpation or a pulpotomy. You know, sometimes um, it's some sort of a perio-related pain which we'll look after as well; do a little bit of perio treatment, but you won't do it, you won't do it, you won't do it, you won't do it. Won't do it, you won't do it, you won't do a molar endo for a thousand bucks, no we don't, we don't do that, no. So we will start the endo and then we will um, you know, ask the patient how so your number one cost would have to be the dentist, correct the overhead, yeah. So how do you pay your dentist in that model? Uh, we we we do a mix of uh, salary and commission.

Can you explain it or would you prefer not to, uh, I think I prefer not to, how it's, can you email it to me definitely, it's quite proprietary or post it on Dentaltown so um, so you spent a lot of time on the app, uh, three and a half years, so one of the things we realized, well, you know, the concept came to mind when we're at harvard it was dental 99 we said all right let's do that and then we said how can we make this work where we can uh provide a a really low fee because i think the average for a clean in australia is about two to three thousand dollars

and we're not going to be able to do it three hundred dollars and filling is about the same um if not more and we spent a lot of time and the one realization we came to is that everything has to be app based and uh you know we've already got it what app based you know we have to have the app replace the manpower we have to have the app handle all the payments so all the reception type of issues and then we really quickly realized that we have to have our own management system as well which we've developed too so there's dental 99 patient app but we've also developed the pro app and

that's something and that's a really the dental 99 app that you can get on google play and app store but you also developed a what app uh it's it's an app for the dentist to use okay what's that app uh it's you can't get it uh publicly so we we it's called the dental 99 pro app we install it on the ipads for patients and what does that help them do with their their pay their scheduling their all that yeah it's so it's it's just like any other practice management system uh but we we ended up developing it uniquely for dental 99 and that's called the the dental 99 the pro pro app dental 99 pro app yeah okay yeah and um yeah so are you going to license this app to other cities

like say i wanted to try it in phoenix arizona yes and uh um since i'm um um look the most like michael jackson or michael jordan with the bald head down here um would you would you license it to someone we do that we absolutely have a strategy for that yes and the answer is yes uh with the app was not built just for a few practices it's it's built uh in in a lot of uber so we could have a thousand to ten thousand now I'm on my own show applying for a job, I hope you send me an email no because I got an MBA; I love business models. I love dentistry and economics; I love business models, and it's so – I mean, it's so easy.

You have five fingers, is it faster? Is it easier? Is it higher quality? Is it lower cost? Is it more, smaller, succinct, and these guys... um, and by the way, I never signed an NDA. So, I get a couple hundred emails a day, and at least one of them wants me to sign it; NDA. It's like, how could I sign an NDA? I mean, all I've done is dentistry for 32 years. You think you're going to tell me something that I've never heard of before ever, and sign something. Uh, you know the way to not get sued is don't play with lawyers. I don't play with lawyers; I don't sign NDAs. Um, the way I look is like McDonald's. I mean, you go to McDonald's - is there something you can't figure out about the business?

I mean, I'm pretty sure it's hamburger, fries, Coke. It always comes down to that. You can get a team to carry out this play or you're just having a dream in your mind and you might as well sit on the couch and watch Netflix and Fortnite and surf Facebook - I mean, it always comes down to operations logistics. But most people always sit there and say, 'Oh, I wish I would have thought of that.' Well, you can still think about it today. There's a new hamburger chain in town. Uh, well, Chick-fil-A is a great example. My whole lifetime, McDonald's was one. Burger King was two, Wendy's was three, and I've been there for a long time. And I've been there for a long time.

Then the founder, Wendy, died; her daughter took over, implemented a bunch of stuff her old man never did, and moved from third to second, which totally shocked me. And as I was basking in the shock that Wendy's passed Burger King, Chick-fil-A comes out of nowhere and passes all three. Now, the average Chick-fil-A does twice the revenue of a McDonald's; McDonald's are about two million, and chick -Fila's four million, and when you go to Chick-fil-A, I mean come on, it's a chicken sandwich, so if you're sitting there thinking, 'Oh, I wish I would have thought of that.' Well, yes, it never comes down to the first guy who thought of it. I mean, uh, look at Coke; it was only nine years later and Pepsi came out.

I mean, so, so your success is going to come down to a great business model that's paramount, but it's going to come down to operations and logistics can you find a team and execute this plan? That's that is yes, there's another side to this as well because we are getting a couple copycat models in there. Is one um, you know Where we'll always be three and a half years ahead of our competition, right in terms of development of the software. You know, I think our competitive advantage is giving the patients the most ideal and unique patient experience. See, our patients when they finish with us, they get a notification on their app: these are the treatments you need; we share with them their X-rays and before-and-after photos, which we do for every procedure, uh, and so they have a really good understanding.

One of the goals in this all this was to give the power back to the patients that's our sort of um business motto, and we we empower them. Uh, with everything they could want to be in control of their own dental journey. Uh, and then the other part is out which is: We've got a lot of people who are going to be in control of their own dental journey, and we've got a lot of people who are going to be in control of their own dental journey. And we've built a team where we have not only just dentists on board, uh, but we have dentists that are now working as software developers, you know. We've got a huge blackboard in one of our practices where we map the patient and clinic clinician experience, and if there's anything that one of our team thinks can be improved for a patient.

perspective or clinician's perspective, you know we put it on the board and bring it up with our software team. We bring it up with our software team and we bring it up with our software team. We uh, we improve on it as uh, straight away. These little little things, you know, will end up moving mountains uh and and giving us that execution and competitive advantage after so um, congratulations on all that! So we crushed it on Dental 99, so let's go to Dental Lounge. Yes, so uh, Dental Lounge I said, like I said, it's a you know, a really full-service type of dental practice, and it's a really good practice, and it's a really good practice.

and it's a really good we we do everything we have a we've been around for a long time i i was i actually started working in dental lounge uh when i was a year out of uh dental school um and then i became a partner about five years ago so it's uh it's really one of those unique wonderful places to be a really great team uh and and and i think a lot of our patients feel feel the love we all have for each other and we just provide them with really exceptional dentistry and are these uh um employees or associates uh in a dental dental labs were associates and how and what is

your goal of an associate do you think um um do you uh like like when I asked when I asked uh, the boys um, when I asked Daryl and um, those guys um, they said that they thought it was a great model if you can come right out of school and stay with them five years and their experience about 20% turnover a year. So, you come out of school and within five years, you start your own, and they were completely happy with that. Is that the way you look at dental um, dental um, yeah? I think five years is a great goal uh, and in an ideal world uh, we would uh, bring on someone as a partner, you know once that five years are up, give them some skin in the game uh, so that they can uh, be part of it just sort of the same sort of trajectory.

I've been through a greater I think the most important thing is finding really good associates, uh, you know. They're it's a really hard thing to do, uh, but but finding the right associate where you get them at the right time and the right stage of life that they're in and in their career so that they're able to do what they're doing and they're able to do what they're doing and they're values um are in line with the practice's values, uh, that allows for us to be really successful together which is really important I think. I think in my experience out um when my first job where I worked uh out of dental school I worked with a dentist.

who had three dental practices and he was a really lovely dentist but everywhere wherever i worked he was not there he was at the other and and then that's really challenging when you're young uh but but in the second role of mine i had two really really really good mentors uh and if i have any advice for any of the younger dentists out there that would be uh get yourself in a really good situation uh and and and and and find yourselves some really good mentors because they they really will shape your career and change your life uh if you if you end up there and and i and i saw chalk and cheese because i was a dentist between the Two and I mean, I'll try and do that as much as I can for our associates as well in helping them grow and become better dentists.

Well, what would you say the young kids that's too me? You're you nailed it, I mean, you come out of school, you need a mentor. Yeah, but they never think like that. They always the question is always like, 'Well, right now if I go to Witchcock Kansas there's three people looking for an associate one will pay 30 but I pay half the lab bill.' The other... it's like, dude, what does that have to do with anything? You you were just paying a hundred thousand dollars a year to learn and now you want to stop all learning. Over who pays half the lab bill, I mean to me it's like, well, where do you want to be the day you retire? If I know where you want to be on that retirement day, I can point the direction to go there.

But if I have no idea where the hell you're going, I mean, imagine if Magellan when he set sail from Portugal - um, we're just going to cruise, you know. We're not really headed to the Strait of Magellan; we're just uh, we're just out sailing. I mean, so what advice would you give those kids? Because they look at their $284,000 in debt and it makes them so money-driven on their decision-making, which I understand. But in the big picture, you'll make more money knowing what the hell where the hell you want to go by the way on that magellan trip in that while they left with 270 men they came back three years and they

didn't even have 18 men and magellan was i mean talk about i mean that was the first guy to circumference sail the planet earth and it was a 90 fatality and including magellan i mean my god those guys are brutal and now people whine because uh they map quest uh made him turn the wrong corner it's like well you didn't die you're still alive i'm sure magellan would have enjoyed to have so what advice would you give those young kids when they're nickel and diamond their Employer over where they want to be, yes. Sacrifice, uh, one is sacrifice, uh, I think. I think you got to give a year or two, um, uh, you know just like our medical colleagues, uh, they're they're pretty much interns all right, they're interns for for a year or two, they're not doing, you know, they're working under the umbrella.

So find, find a really good mentor, uh, and and in the first couple of years, uh, it's you really just want to be learning what I did how and I and and it's really really hard like you said, uh, to find young people to do this at this at this point in time. When I first came out of dental school, the person I told you about, you know I was he gave me essentially two, two, and a half days to work right, but the other three and a half days I just went and shadowed him, and just watched what he did, and then that's and I did that for six to twelve months and it was really hard,

really hard, but I learned so much, and there's so many intricacies uh of being a good dentist, and you see that um and and you can only do that by watching someone the way they walk into a room, the way they shake a patient's hand, how they talk to a patient, all the tiny, tiny little steps that someone learns in 20 years; they'll never be able to to tell you, they're gonna have to show you, and and finding a good mentor is a two-way street where you have to put in some time uh with them and usually it's unpaid time uh and and uh and learn and learn and learn and the other

thing that really helped me and i know i know this might sound coincidental but it was dental town you know i'd be i'd be doing something during the day you know let's say i'd do a class two feeling and i couldn't get a good contact i'd run on dental town in the evening and watch youtube videos and we're in a really great really wonderful time where you can so much learning uh on your own time as a dentist or and in lots of professions through things like youtube continued education on dental town getting on group forums um and then and then if you tie that in with having a really good mentor to work with uh you know the sky's the limit but but that first year or two i i would be i would be strongly encouraging um to not try not to be

focused on earning an income so where do they when kids in australia come out of school do they do they usually go to like uh bupa first or um one three hundred smiles or uh are they are they usually going to work in a big box chain uh retail dental uh center like bupa uh i'd say it's pretty it's pretty uh mixed tower you know because uh our corporate team they're not as big as The ones over there, uh, and you guys do have a bigger population, so the biggest one here is Bupa and they've got 200 dental practices around the whole country, uh, so it's; it doesn't really the economies of scale aren't as big, and someone like Pacific Smiles Group or one, three hundred, uh, they're then they're nowhere near those numbers, so most people end up in a you know, a general dental practice, uh, you know, the local dental practice, or or in a in a corporate chain, I'd say it's a fairly even spit

split between them all, and who's the top dog of Bupa Australia Dental, uh, as in the dental, the dentist or the biggest one? Who runs it, I mean Evelyn runs it out of the United Kingdom, um yeah she's Group CEO of Bupa. Who, who's um so the Australian uh Bupa Australia is uh is a lovely individual, his name is Hisham El Ansari, who's the top dog of Bupa Australia. How do you spell that? H-i-s-h-a-m, yep uh and I think the surname is A-l-a-n-s-a-r-y. And then the head of the dental arm is Mark Jeffrey. Can you email both of them and introduce me? Absolutely, I love I love business models and and and what I tell wonderful people and and the other thing um talk to the kids because they'll be working at say Heartland that has you know 800 offices and just with a bad attitude.

and then I'll say, 'Well, okay. All my friends that own one dental office basically can't manage that and don't know any of their numbers. So you work for a cat that owns 500 to a thousand offices, so tell me what you learned from him. And they just learned that they don't like it and that they want to have their own office. It's like, and then the smart ones, like you, who work there if you work for Heartland, university or dental anymore are there any concerns about you'd work there for about six months and then you'd convince like their regional manager, best person in the whole operation, to leave the company and go help you

start your own dental office and then I'll say well what did you learn from working at Heartland you'll say oh I found out who their best smartest employee was stole them so you would have gone there and in six in probably six months figured out who the smartest person was that knew all the operational logistics the details the business the banking the financing and you would have gone and started your own damn dental office. I mean it's it takes people time and money and how do you work for Bupa that has how many offices around the world do you think they have? Dental ones, yeah or yeah, I'd probably say five hundred to a thousand. Yeah, so you worked for someone that runs five hundred dental offices and you didn't learn anything.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's not you and your bad attitude that has to be. You've got to make the best of your situation, whatever it is, Howard, so if you're, you know, the lowest associate in a, in a, in a corporate, you can always find a really good senior dentist there that would be willing to help you. I think dentists by nature understand that you don't get to become a good dentist without other people's involvement and we do have this innate nature about it. Yeah. And that's why it's so important for us to want to give back to other people for the rewards that we have received over time. Yeah I mean you just gotta find the right people to do it.

I mean just just read this on Bupa I mean Bupa so here's their I mean I mean just fathom this Bupa operates dental centers in UK, Australia, New Zealand, Spain. We directly employ 80,000 people for our dental offices in New Zealand. In UK, Australia, Spain, Poland, Chile, New Zealand, Hong Kong, Turkey, US, Brazil, the Middle East, and Ireland. Oh oh oh and you can't learn anything working for those guys? I mean I mean your attitude determines your altitude I mean my gosh this Evelyn Bork out of UK she just seems I mean she's a typical operator and what I mean by an operator is that in America everybody knows the CEO of famous sexy companies like you know Apple and Steve Jobs. Yeah.

And Elon Musk but I'll say well in my lifetime one of the fastest growing biggest companies ever was Walgreens and they grew 30,000 percent in my lifetime. Who runs that? They don't know because they're Hollywood wants to think that the CEO is a hot guy driving a Mercedes Benz or a red Ferrari with the hot chick well that that's that has nothing to it's their operators and here's here's Evelyn just sitting at her desk in the United in London. Yeah. And employs 80,000 people in her dental offices treating 16.7 million patients you can't learn something from that I mean that is just amazing. So what what other I want you to talk about I consider you an expert in so many things but technology is obviously one of them and they come out of school $285,000 in debt and they say well if I want to be when I grow up if I want to be just like Gama.

Yeah. Yeah. Do I need a CAD cam a CBC T a bio lace laser what what do I need to play in your league what would technology made you yeah you'd hit the nail earlier on with photography right that's a be really big one these days out and I think you can be a really great dentist I mean you can be but you can't get that message out there enough with that without really good photography. I think magnification is really really really important also and then something I'm passionate about I know you guys work on this is digital smile design and getting really good at it it's such a great tool for cosmetic dentistry and what what do you need for digital smile design not not too much photography camera work get to a course they do courses all over the world.

So, you're using someone else's digital smile design platform like say Christian Coachman or. Yeah. Yeah. Christian Coachman. Yeah. So you're using his. Yes. Yeah. And then they've got the digital smile design app. It's it's you know it's about three or four versions in now it's such a it's really a great tool for patient communication and then you know they all talk about emotional dentistry a lot but there's a there's a real good part to that you know a lot of a lot of a lot about my patients will come in and they'll they'll tell you what you want you know with sort of cosmetic type of dentistry and you there's nothing like showing them what you can do or what what we can get to with with this software I've been a huge believer in CAD CAM I've used the CEREC since 2008 I don't think that's necessary though but it is helpful.

And then and then and then there's a few add ons there you know the videography attached to a microscope the digital smile design stuff they do facial scanning which we've been which just came out in the last year and I think that's been a really great tool for us to communicate with our patients and and show them in 3D what what what we can achieve through that work. So CAD CAM you're kind of okay you definitely want the Christian Coachman digital smile design app and that's that's the website digital smile design app.com. Well first of all when I want you to touch on something I want to go totally different a lot of these kids and even the adults they're just stressed

yeah and you watch them talk on Dentaltown and they're not really their biggest problem isn't deciding what they want to do and they're not really they're not really they're not really getting to which bird to use or what's Bonnie agent they're they're a lot of them their biggest problem is just stress how does a guy like you handle stress? Besides alcohol. I love alcohol but I drink too much I think I've got some good you got to have a good balance but I don't like the sort of the new work lifestyle balance that's really focused on in the and in younger professionals these days. What I do I get up real early Howard you know I'm up around 4 a.m.

I'll get some exercise in that's the first thing I'll do and then I'll get some work done right and I love that early morning so I've got from about 4 a.m. To about 6:30 where I am, I've got my own time right so I'll exercise, then I'll get some work done and then and then my kids get up and then I'll spend time with the kids and then I'll and I'm off to work. So I think some things that stress me from time to time is not getting enough done in the day and then just adding that extra time in the mornings helps a lot. And what is your, what is your exercise routine? So, I vary it around a bit how do you know variety is the spice of life?

But I'll tend to run and lift some weights two or three days a week, and then I'll I'll do a basketball workout a couple times a week; I'll play one basketball game in the evenings also. And then, and then, I've been doing Krav Maga, which we talked about earlier, a couple nights a week from time to time. And that's an Israeli self-defense system. And the best way I can explain it is, they teach you how to be Liam Neeson in Taken, but, you know... dentistry is something that's very much a hard physical profession; you really need some exercise, some of that good stuff, to look after your body and well-being. It'll give you that longevity and happiness.

The only the only thing I hate about working out is when I walk into the gym everybody wants me to, they want to hire me to be their personal trainer; I'm just... Oh man, that's hard! It must be hard now. I know and one thing I always wondered: You are so prolific on public; I mean, you're you're published everywhere. I mean, I'm looking at dailymail.com.uk CosmeticDentistGamer verdianreveals the 10 Habits women with white teeth have. How do you? How why are you always the go-to guy to quote? How do you? How do you what advice would you have to someone who wanted to be, uh, the famous guy like you? Get your foot in the door first; you know, you do a few, you do a few you know.

If you know the right people, they look after you, and then it becomes much easier. Once you've got your foot in there, you've done a few appearances on TV or something, or read in a few articles, then they sort of end up coming to you for opinions on certain things. But something about publicity, it's a little bit about who you know and looking after the right people, and we were fortunate. We got a few really good patients through the practice that had public profiles that helped out a lot. And be patient. These sorts of things do take time. And be really good at your job. If you're a really good dentist, it'll end up coming to you if you seek it.

And last but not least, I have to ask: what I see mostly is these kids, they're working somewhere, they're not happy, they want to get out and they know what to do. They know where they want to go. They know everything. They're just scared. They're just afraid to dive in headfirst. So this is my assessment of all the Americans that I see. They come out of school; they're scared, so they go work at a job until they're so miserable after a year they quit. They get another job. So they get a different job every year for five years until they're so miserable. At this point, they don't even care if they die. Yeah. And they're like, 'Well, now I don't even care if I die, so I'll finally open up my dental office,' and then they live happily ever after.

How do you skip, how do you contract those five years or make it? How do you work on that? Yeah. I think for me in the first few years, what was really stressful was not doing the quality of dentistry that I wanted to do, you know? And I think it's pretty important that you do focus on. I got some great advice when I was leaving dental school, and one was: keep performing dentistry as though you still have a tutor over your shoulder, right? And that'll help guide your day-to-day decision making. And then two, another great advice I got was: focus on something you really love in dentistry for a year, right? So whether it's periodontics, endodontics, whatever it is, right?

You focus on that for a year, you do all your continued education; it really becomes a passion for you, you get really good at it, right? And then you do something else the next year. So, you know, if you did periodontics, then you focus on endodontics the year after, or you do all your continued education courses in endo, you know, you go to courses, you do courses online, you research endo, and you get really good at that. I mean, that process of getting really good at something and something specific can be very rewarding and it really helps develop you as a dentist. And then the other part, like I've said before, is find some good dentists to be around.

You know, people that are going to motivate you, inspire you, people that will make you want to be a better dentist and a better person. You know, in the professionals' world, you know, something like YPO, right? Where you end up getting matched with other business people and they mentor you. And it's not just the mentorship in dentistry, it's mentorship in life. You know, whatever other challenges you have that you can take to this person, it really will make a world of difference. If you're alone on an island, the way you're saying, Howard, and you're just working and things just get worse and worse and you just get stressed and stressed, it's not much fun. And it's very easy to spiral into that world. Well, I knew this would be an amazing podcast.

It was so profound. I love to have you do a course on Dentaltown. Sure. If you're looking for a Dental 99 USA beta shop, I'd love to test it. I'm in the sixth-largest city in America. The Phoenix Metro is about four million. But thank you so much for coming on. And the next time I go down under and see my brother Paul, I hope we can all go out and have a beer. Please look me up, Howard. Okay, consider it done. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me on board. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. It was an honor to podcast you. Same to you. Thanks, Howard. Alright, bye-bye.
Category: Cosmetic Dentistry, Health, Wellness and Ergonomics, Practice Management, HR and Accounting
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