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AUDIO - HSP #240 - Juli Kagan
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VIDEO - HSP #240 - Juli Kagan
• Stretching vs. Yoga
• Value of moving (mindfully)
• Importance of breath
• "Pushing" yourself-how much is too much? Why?
• Living a life with gratitude and joy-one trillion reasons!
• Yoga & Pilates-two different fruits; but oh so good for you!
• Atha = Now! That all-important word!
“Moving You Intelligently”™
Known as The Mindful Body Expert, Juli believes the mind-body connection is vital for mental, physical, and spiritual well-being; but her greatest pleasure is sharing her knowledge with others - whether in a tent in the African Mara, on a cruise ship in Tahiti, or privately, teaching Yoga or Pilates one-on-one, “working with the body in front of her.”
Author of the book Mind Your Body, Juli is passionate about intelligent movement. She has a unique understanding of biomechanics, ergonomics and expertise in posture; coalesced as a registered dental hygienist, previous dental (and hygiene) school clinical instructor and lecturer as well as a 600-hour Pilates Instructor and 500-hour credentialed Experienced Registered Yoga Teacher.
A national speaker on the topics of body and breath and their relationship to the mind, Juli has a Masters degree in Educational Psychology, with an emphasis on life-long learning, and is a health education university professor. Above all, however, her greatest delight is helping people realize their own inner joy!
Howard: It is a huge, huge honor today to be interviewing Juli Kagin who I first met her husband first, her husband is David, and he is the most adorable, entrepreneur, free spirit. I mean, you husband is the most balanced dentist I know. He's got a place, he lives on, his house is on the ocean, I've spent the night there before, facing the Atlantic Ocean, and then he has another house on the other side, in Santa Monica, California, facing the other ocean. Which ocean does he like more?
Juli: Right now, he likes California, but he's ...
Howard: He likes California more? Is that just because it's more new? How long has he had a place out there?
Juli: Well, about five years. It's a mobile home, Howard, it's a double-wide.
Howard: And you say he just likes to wake up on the ocean and roller blade and do yoga?
Juli: Yeah, he's got a great life.
Howard: In all seriousness, I don't want to toot my own horn, but has he not seen me lecture more than any other dentist alive on earth?
Juli: I think he's your absolutely number one fan. He's like a Grateful Howard Farran-head.
Howard: He is, I love to see him. He's the only guy I know that laughs at all my jokes, I don't think I've ever offended him one time. He even laughs on jokes that should be thrown out, but he's amazing. Speaking of that, tonight, I get to do a Tempe Improv tonight. I get to do my stand-up comedy routine at the Tempe Improv, that has had some of the most, the biggest names in comedy.
Juli: Good for you, you're spreading your wings.
Howard: Well, you know, it's so confusing to me because when I do the comedy clubs, they always say the same thing. Oh, my god, you're so clean, you have the cleanest act, you didn't say the "f" word, blah, blah, blah. You didn't say anything about sex, or violence, or rape, or racism, or any. Then I go do a dental convention, same exact act. Oh, my god, that was just a little edgy, Howard, I mean, that was, we've had some complaints. It's like, dude, how can, I've done nineteen comedy places in Arizona, and they all tell me I have the cleanest act.
Juli: That's hysterical.
Howard: And then every damn dental convention tells me that Mrs. Wimpleton was offended about some joke where I mentioned trailer, born in a barn. It's context ...
Juli: You are on the edge, you are on the edge in some dental meetings, I will say.
Howard: Well, I'm on the edge if you at church or a dental meeting, but if you're at the Tempe Improv, I swear to God that the other comedians tonight will make me look like Pope Francis.
Juli: A virgin.
Howard: Yeah. So the reason I was so excited, now David is a dentist, you're his wife, you're a hygienist, but what I think is so important to you where I just adore what you're doing is, dentists has a lot of occupational hazards. In fact, I want to push out on my Facebook page today the Business Inside talked about the, did you see that, the twenty most, well, I'll find it later, I'll e-mail it to you. They were talking about the occupations that have the most personal injuries and dentistry made the list. And you know what? I was in that category up till age fifty. I mean, I could barely move my neck, when I was driving my car, and I'd go to change lanes, there was an electrical bolt. You go tell your doctor, and they just want to put you on drugs, and I didn't want to do any pharmaceuticals.
Finally, I just, it was actually my friend Tom [Mattern 00:03:33], he's a dentist, his wife Sharon just literally almost barked at me in my garage. "Howard, I'm going to yoga right now, come to yoga with me right now." I just thought, "whatever." I went to hot bikram yoga, and I swear to God, it was love at first sight. I only did hot bikram yoga, I did the ninety-day challenge, where I did it every day for ninety days, and I would say in three weeks, all my neck pain was gone.
Then you meet these dentists, and they're like, "Yeah, I have to go have carpel tunnel syndrome," and you want to be a nice guy, but you just want to say, well, you know what? If you just did one push-up in the last decade, maybe your hands would flatten out and your ligaments and tendons would feel better. Why are you going to go get surgery and take pills when you can't even do a push-up?
I'm the poster child, I can say this because, I was this fat and lazy, and I was fifty years old and 238, and for three years, my physician wanted to put me on high blood pressure, because I was at 140/90, three years he begged me, and I said no. He wanted to put me on a statin for cholesterol, three years, I said no. I finally, at fifty, I said, okay, this is bullshit, I'm a workaholic, I work fifteen hours a day, I haven't exercised in a couple of decades. I signed up for the Ironman, at the end of the Ironman, I went back into my physician, and he said, "Howard, I couldn't have lowered your blood pressure this low with medication. You lowered it to 118/68."
Juli: Oh, my gosh.
Howard: He said, "You cut your resting pulse almost in half." He said, "I couldn't have lowered your cholesterol this low with a statin." And I don't take a pill. I do take thyroid. I thought it would cure my low thyroid, too, but it didn't. He said that won't affect thyroid. I do take thyroid, that's the only medication I take every day. I take .88 milligrams of thyroid. I don't know, with HIPAA, if that means I can now sue myself for disclosing it. Do you think I could make some money on that? I'm going to sue myself after this for ...
But the bottom line is, what I love about you is, I just meet hygienists and dentists all day long that are just painfully miserable. I know more dentists buying a microscope just so they can look into the microscope and don't have to tilt their head forward because their neck is killing them. I'm a bald fat guy, you're the master of stretching at yoga, take it from here. I mean, do you think a miserable, painful hygienist/dentist whose back hurts, neck hurts and all this? Do you think they can really get off the couch, put their doughnut down, and stretch their way to feeling better?
Juli: You know, Howard, you are the poster child, because this is my profession, I teach yoga and pilates all day and I will tell you that yoga is the drug of choice. No doubt about it. I get too many people that, after just a few sessions, feel remarkably better and so much so it compels them to want to stay with the plan, just like you did. There is just something about it that I can't quite put my finger on, other than to say that, it's magical. It is magical.
More importantly to me is what it does to your mind. It sort of like calms you down a little bit. You know, you've got to be in a tough pose sometimes, and you've got to be with it. Your mind is going, I hate this, I don't like this, this isn't comfortable, this isn't fun. But you're in it, and you learn to sort of accept what is. You get better in your body, you get better in your mind, and you become calmer, and you handle life a little bit differently, with a little bit more grace. It's magic, not only physically but mentally.
Howard: Well, you know, my problem now is I can't stop doing yoga because my team has seen the Before Age 50 Howard and the After 50. Now I'm 53. It used to be, you know, you'd come into work, and you know, there's a big old problem, and I'm just kind of a manic guy, and you might be cussing and saying this or that, blah, blah, blah. But now at 5:30 yoga, which is ninety minutes, now you walk in there, and they say, oh, the whole building just burned down, and a meteorite hit the backyard and we just had an earthquake, and every single patient just filed a lawsuit. And you say, "Awesome. What else? Anything else?" I mean, you're just so much more calmer.
That's where my friend Jerome Smith said it, he said that when he quits running, he doesn't like his mental health. He doesn't run because he has a six-pack and he's in great shape and what everybody thinks that you would want to exercise for, to look hot or something. He says, Jerome Smith says, "I run for mental health," and I do yoga for mental.
Some of my friends ask me, they say, well, you always heard in the seventies, these hippies doing a meditation, or whatever. They say, well, is yoga meditation? How would you answer? Is yoga a form of meditation? Because some people, you see these meditation, there's new apps out for meditation. What's the difference between, what is meditation and is yoga kind of meditation?
Juli: It's a really big question, it's really an important question, too. In yoga, there's this book called the Yoga Sutras. Sutra comes from the word suture, a thread. The second yoga sutra in Sanskrit says "yogas citta vrtti nirodha" and that means "yoga's purpose is to cease the chattering of the mind." The purpose of yoga is not just the physicality, but it is the mentality. If you were to go to India, you would not see calisthenics, you would not see people doing triangle and warrior and the poses. You would see them sitting their butt down and quieting their mind in a meditative state.
That being said, I will tell you that, for myself, when I do yoga and I'm in the poses and I'm feeling my muscles because I'm going inward. I'm penetrating my mind to go inward, to feel what I'm sensing. That inner feeling of what I'm sensing is my anchor that allows me to have a meditation in movement. The quieting of the mind is the purpose of yoga and if you can do that by feeling the sensations or paying attention to what the teacher is saying and you're present in that moment, you're quieting your mind. That's meditation.
Howard: I completely agree, because I think one of the things, you know, I've done many different types of yoga, I've done bikram, summa, sumits? S-U-M-I-T-S. I think it's S-U-M-I-T-S, someone told me it was bikram's brother that started that chain, or whatever. Then Lifetime Fitness, they have a yoga class. I like bikram the most, it's twenty-six poses, you do each one twice. I notice this, if I'm thinking about my patient, my first patient, or I've got to do something, maybe it's kind of an uncomfortable or stressful deal, whatever, then I'm falling out of my poses. What I notice is that I can't think of anything outside of the yoga room, because I can barely do any of these poses. I have to say focused, and I think that's what blocks out all the cluttering, all the chattering. So it's ninety minutes of non-dental, and for me that's just magic.
Juli: You know, Howard, mind can only think of one thing at a time. You might have a different brain that most people, I will say that. You can do different things, but the mind can only focus on one thing at a time, and what they call it is an anchor. When you're in that room, that studio, your anchor is your body and your mind combined to one. Yoga means to yoke, to join two things together. You're joining your body and your mind, and that anchor is allowing you to stay very present.
You know the first yoga sutra, Howard? It says atha yoganushasanam. Atha is the first word in all these expositions of these, you know, aphorisms. There's 126 aphorisms. The first word in all of it is atha. You know what that word means?
Howard: Jelly doughnut.
Juli: Now. It means now, in this moment, you and I are talking, and in the next moment, you and I are doing this. It's the moment by moment, and that moment by moment keeps you very, very present. You're not thinking about your patient, you're thinking about your yoga pose in that moment. That's the quieting of the mind.
Howard: You know, the other thing that I compare yoga to, golf? Because I was on the golf high school team, only because my buddy, Robert Donovan, talked me into joining with him. The neat thing about golf is you can be the worst golfer in the world, but out of a hundred shots, one of them is good enough to where Tiger Woods would say, "Hey, good shot." You know what I mean? One out of a hundred is going to be a shot. That's what I like about yoga, with twenty-six poses is, even though I'm probably the oldest guy in the room, I'm always the oldest, fattest guy in the yoga studio.
But what's cool for me is that at twenty-six moves, every class, one or two of those moves, I got a little further. Maybe I got my hand on the bottom of my foot, or sometimes, during one class each day, I always think, "Damn, I can't believe I just did that. That was amazing." What was also amazing, this is how bad I, it was a year of yoga between one day, I was pulling on my feet stretching, and I felt something, I don't know if it even was lumbar or sacrum, something like, thump. It was like an earthquake thump, and then immediately it was like ...
The next swim class I had, my swim teacher, I didn't tell her obviously anything about that, and she just said, "Howard, you're finally rotating your hips." I thought, damn, I bet that's the first time whatever the hell moved had just moved in probably twenty-five years.
Juli: You must have been in a lot of pain before you did yoga.
Howard: Well, all my pain was in the neck, I didn't, the other stuff was annoying, but the neck was actual an electrical pain. I'm a dentist, I'm not a physical therapist, I'm not any of this stuff, but come on. This is dentistry [and essentially 00:14:10], a lot of this carpal tunnel catastrophe in dentistry, I just call bullshit.
Juli: You know what carpal tunnel comes a lot from?
Juli: The neck. Absolutely the neck. Because everything emanates from the central spine, so if your cervical vertebrae are a problem, it's chasing down the hand. Often times, people will get carpal tunnel syndrome, when it doesn't heal the problem, because it's not where the source is.
Howard: Yeah, what I meant by calling bullshit, it's not, if you're listening and you had carpal tunnel, it's not that I don't know, don't believe that you have the symptoms and all this stuff, I just believe it's because you're not taking care of your instrument. That going to a surgeon to cut on your tendons and give you a pill, I mean, why don't you just go to a medicine man, dressed up and running around a campfire, mixing lotions and potions in a bowl?
You're basically in full-blown quackery as it is, and you just know, if this person went to yoga, ninety minutes, how, if someone, talk to this person right now, they're listening to you, they have neck pain, they go to a chiropractor three times a week, and a doctor wants to do carpal tunnel surgery on them. What would you tell them they would have to do to heal that inside out versus letting a chiropractor ... Because I explain it, a chiropractor, because I went to one three times a week [inaudible 00:15:30]. They move you from the outside, they're moving you. I think it's very different when you're moving yourself.
Juli: Absolutely. You know, I do a style called iyengar, B.K.S. Iyengar was this really amazing guy. He's probably as intelligent as you are. He created these poses that can be therapeutic. So for example, David, my husband, will say to me, "My back is hurting." I'll put him on my yoga wall in the house, where I have a yoga studio, I'll put him on the yoga wall. Five minutes, I'll traction his spine with just yoga ropes on the wall. Walks away better. It's just that he is working the spine, he is working the bones and alignment, and when the bones are aligned, the muscles go where they need to go and they don't fight.
You know, the body is beautiful in accommodating itself. It will just do anything it can to stay out of pain or to prevent it, and the yoga miraculously aligns the body in ways that no one else can externally. Only you can do that.
Howard: The other thing I noticed that I wished the wrestling coaches out there, because the only reason I'm really a dentist is because the only reason I went to high school was for the wrestling team. When my dad used to beg me to drop out of high school and start my own restaurant and everything, the only reason I really didn't want to drop out of high school was for the wrestling team. The only reason I paid attention during class was because everyone of my friends who got a D or an F, I mean, these were Catholic schools ran by nuns and priests. I mean, you got a D or an F, you were off all sports. They didn't care if you were the starting quarterback. No one gave a crap, school was first, and sports were extracurricular. Those nuns ...
Juli: Which is good, which is good.
Howard: Yeah, and those nuns were focused. But the thing about yoga that I wish I would have known, and my boys all, we all wrestled seven days a week from probably age five to fifteen, some of my boys went years without even losing a single match.
Howard: The art of stretching is pulling, and wrestling, you would just lean forward and try to touch your toes and all this stuff. It took me about a year of yoga to realize that. You really want to stretch, you should really be pulling. I just thought stretching was leaning over and just using your weight, but in yoga, you grab the bottom of your feet and you pull, and pulling ...
Juli: Well, you know, wait a second, let's just be careful here. You have to move mindfully. That is really important. You're not just, here's the thing, Howard, you're not just pulling to strain the muscle, you're pulling with the muscle having some integration. Right? Your actions of your legs, your quadriceps, for example, are lifting up as you stretch over to your toes, so you can get the hamstring to stretch.
It's not like you're just a bag of weightedness and just hanging down, because then you're going to pull tendons. You have to move very carefully, very mindfully, and you are taught that when you're doing your poses. You know what I'm saying? I just want to be careful that people aren't going to start touching their toes and start straining their muscles. Lengthening the muscle is different than straining the muscle.
Howard: Okay, you're, the evidence I have on these podcasts is it's probably all dentists. What do you think is an occupational injury from sitting on a stool doing dentistry all day that could be corrected by mindful, moving, stretching yoga? What benefits, what do you see that is a negative physicality of doing dentistry all day, sitting on a stool, leaning over.
Juli: Here's the problem that I have, the biggest problem is, is forward flexion lateral rotation. Which means that the dentist is forward and twisted, and those two things are, two out of three, that is going to cause a problem. The third could actually be, the neck is twisted. You're forward flexed, you're laterally rotated, and your head is twisting, and it's not normally on its axis.
Howard: Forward flexed, laterally twisted.
Juli: Laterally extended and the head twisted.
Juli: So it's forward sideways twisted.
Juli: That's three, that's three strikes. You're given about three. That doesn't even include your shoulder girdle, your hips, how you're sitting in the chair. If you're not sitting centered in the chair, and your butt is hanging off, you've got a problem.
Howard: A lot of dentists suffer from lower back pain, but I've noticed this. Again, I'm not an orthopedic surgeon, but I've noticed this. You notice all the patients who had back pain, had their lower vertebraes fused ten years ago. It's like ten years later, then it's the other end of the spine, now they've got to get all their necks fused. They don't really see the ...
Juli: Well, Howard, I always say this. First off, as I think you mentioned earlier. The body is so incredibly intelligent. It is unbelievably intelligent. It will figure out ways of fixing things and making things, at the cellular level, better or worse. The spine is like physics. What happens at the first cervical vertebrae is going to happen at the coccyx. Because it's a balance point. What happens in your neck happens in your lower back. What happens in your shoulders happens in your hips.
It has to work that way in order for the spine to stay in some sort of equipoise, in some sort of equilibrium. If your head is forward all day, trust me, your lower back is round, too. It's hard to do this, and stick your butt out. It's hard to lean your chest forward and stick your butt out. The body will create ways of working itself, so that it stays in as little pain as possible. You know, Howard, the problem is is that you get dentists who don't listen to the whisper of the first pain, and they work through it.
They don't listen to the next shout, and they work through it until the body is screaming and saying, "Stop already," and the stop becomes so painful that they have to have surgery because they have no other recourse. If they would listen to the whisper or listen to the shout before it gets to the pain, they would have so much better outcome.
Howard: Yeah, I want to hear, these are just things that my dentist buddies in Phoenix say when I, when we go to yoga. They say, "Well, first of all, girls are born more flexible that guys. That girl is doing that over there because she's a girl." Are girls more flexible than guys?
Juli: Girls have different muscular tone, obviously. Men have a lot more testosterone, they have a lot more thickness to their muscles. They've got a different muscle. It doesn't mean they don't have flexibility potential. It doesn't mean that at all. It just means women are designed differently.
Howard: The other thing I always tell them is, the key to doing Ironman or yoga or whatever is, never compare yourself to anyone else, only compare yourself to how you were yesterday. If you saw me naked, you'd throw up, but comparing myself to three years ago, I look like Brad Pitt. Same thing in yoga, you see people next to you, look like a pretzel, it's like, well, I'm not that person. But I'll tell you what, I can do a lot more today than I did three years ago.
Juli: Yeah, you know, I got to tell you two things. Yoga is not about what it looks like, it's about what it feels like.
Howard: I've got to ask you, I don't think I've ever seen a woman in yoga class without a tattoo. I think I'm the only guy, I'm the oldest guy in there, the fattest guy in there, and the only one without a tattoo.
Juli: I have no tattoos.
Howard: Really, are you kidding me?
Juli: I have no tattoos.
Howard: I don't think you can tell, I don't think you can be a yoga instructor without a tattoo. Is it, do yoga people have more tattoos than non-yoga people? I have to ask you that.
Juli: No, not at all. No, not at all. Not in Boca Raton.
Howard: Really? Oh, okay, so it might be regional.
Juli: Maybe. There's a lot of Jewish people in Boca Raton, and they don't get tattoos, most of them.
Howard: Oh, is that it? It's anti-religious?
Juli: You know, from the Nazis, when they were numbered.
Howard: Okay, so it's not in the Torah, it's not in the Old, the first five books ...
Juli: I don't know about that, but when there was the Holocaust, they got those tattoos of their numbers. In honor of that, you don't put, you don't do anything to your own body.
Howard: You know, it probably is culture, because I've been saying since 1990, that the region between San Fran, Portland, and Seattle has more tattoos per person than any place or country I've ever seen. I mean, it's just like, I mean, dentists come to your courses sleeved. You're like, wow, dude, if you were in Wichita, Kansas, I don't even know if you could have a practice. You know, what I mean? Yeah, it's different.
Juli: It's all good.
Howard: Yeah, it's just art. Got to ask you another question, a dentist asked me this the other day. What would be, what if he said, what's the difference between yoga and pilates, and is there pros and cons? Because he's a dentist, and he's fifty, he's heavy, he's thinking, because it's two different studios, it's two different memberships. What would be the pros and cons of joining a yoga versus a pilate? And explain the pilate, because I didn't know what it was until I went to a class.
Juli: Pilates is a man, named Joseph Pilates. It's very core-centric, it's about using your what they call powerhouse, it's about using your core muscles. It's very, very alignment based, and you know, a huge part of it is posture. It's phenomenal, it's very linear. Yoga is very dynamic, and yoga has a component that I don't think pilates has, which is the mindfulness. I think for me, as I've gotten older, the yoga has seeped into me a little bit deeper, with a little bit more depth and breadth, with regards to who I am as a person and not just the physicality. That's a little bit of a bonus for a person who wants more than just the physical.
Howard: Yeah, I agree, I think I will always do yoga for the mental health. Here's another thing, maybe this is too much information and kind of creepy, but if I don't yoga ... Well, when we talk about organs, I mean, the skin is the biggest organ. I mean, if you've ever gone elk hunting and you field dress an elk, I mean, the skin is just, it's massive, and the weight of it is incredible. It's our largest organ, and I think our second largest is like liver, and the liver is much smaller than the skin.
I notice this, if I don't do yoga say for two weeks, and I go in there and I'm doing yoga, the sweat, when it goes into my eyes, burns. When I do yoga three times a week, the sweat, when it goes into your eyes, it's like saline. There's just massive empirical evidence to me that ... Then you look at crystal meth addicts, the crystal meth works out through the skin. Lots of things go out through the urine, some go out through the breath. The amphetamines, like caffeine, nicotine, crystal meth, work out through the skin, they got all those splotches, you know, and everything. I just think yoga is just taking your largest organ and just squeezing it out like a chamois cloth.
Then my boys, I don't want to embarrass any of them, but their friends, when they go with us, they all say that it completely clears up acne. If they've got a dose of acne coming, they'll go in that, what is that, 105 degrees?
Juli: 106, but you know, that's bikram. Some people don't like bikram, it's a lot of mental stuff. Here's what I will say about something really important, Howard. There is a yoga for every body and there is a yoga for everybody. Meaning, I can't do bikram. I have my own personal summers, I don't need more heat.
Howard: Because you're in Florida.
Juli: Well, I'm postmenopausal, but when I was menopausal, let me tell you, I was hot and I didn't want to go into heat, a heated room. For me, that method didn't work for me. The iyengar method and the vinyasa method works beautifully for me personally. I'm saying this because, it's like religion. Everyone wants some religion, you know, whether you're Judaic or Christian, everyone is getting up the mountain, just a different path. People can do all different kinds of yoga and find the same end result. A great body, a clear, clean, calm mind. That's just what I think.
Howard: Okay, well, go over, 85 percent of my listeners are in the United States, the other 15 percent are in every count that iTunes measures. What are, go through a couple different types of yoga. Like I said, some of the big brand names out here, and it might be different, bikram, sumits, Lifetime, have you heard of Lifetime Fitness?
Howard: They have a yoga class in there. Can you go over some, because I want you to talk to this individual who might be thinking what they would like or not like?
Juli: Sure, I'm going to talk about three or four different ones. Primarily bikram is named after a guy Choudhury Bikram, and there are twenty-six poses, it's 106 degrees. It's a lot of mental, getting over the mentality of how hot it is and you've got to get over that. Great practice because you can check your progress. Another style is vinyasa, which means linking breath with movement.
Howard: Wait, I'm sorry, I got to back you up. What do you say, it links your process? Or it, it gives you feedback.
Juli: You can check your progress.
Howard: Check your progress. What does that mean?
Juli: Like you said, the first day you did a triangle, your hand hardly touched the floor, that three weeks later, three months later, you can put your hand on the floor and say, oh, my gosh.
Howard: Okay, very good.
Juli: That's progress.
Howard: Okay. The one thing I want to say, you said it was 106 degrees ...
Juli: Hot as hell.
Howard: No, no, I'm in Phoenix, I love going from the parking lot, where it's 112, into a nice cool room that's 106. I enjoy cooling off in the yoga studio.
Juli: Well, in Florida, you go from hot to hot, too, so I get your language. Next is vinyasa, which means linking breath with movement. It's a lot faster paced, although there are some teachers that go slower. You're working on certain sequences of poses. You might do a warrior two, you might do a triangle, you might do a side-lengthening pose, and then you go to the other side, and you're done. Then there's another back-bending series, where you'll lift your chest, and your little camel, or you're do these little poses that are back bending. There's different sequences. My favorite for dentists, by far, is the iyengar method. The reason why, Howard ...
Howard: Can you spell that?
Juli: You bet. I-Y-E-N-G-A-R. Iyengar.
Howard: Brian, Google I-Y-E-N-G-A-R yoga, she said that's the best one [crosstalk 00:30:17].
Juli: Iyengar, B.K.S. Iyengar. He died last year, year and a half ago, at 96 years old. The reason I like the iyengar method is, number one, the teachers are beyond well-trained. I started doing my training, it's three years of intense training before you get an introductory certification. These teachers are like physical therapists, and you can go to them with a problem, and they will fix the problem quickly. They will do it in a way that is very safe.
Iyengar is the one who taught yoga with all the props, so he was the one that brought in the block, brought in the strap, brings in the blankets, brings in the wall. He's the one who allowed yoga to be accessible to every body, so that anybody could do yoga and be able to touch their hand to the floor, but they brought the floor up by putting a block on the floor. They were able to get the poses biomechanically tight and strong, but you may not have gone all the way down to the floor. I like that method for dentists because the dentist who is in pain, or the dentist who has a problem can go to that teacher and say, "How do I fix this? Or what poses do I need to do that? What poses do I need to help me?" They will help the student, greatly, quickly, without getting them in more pain.
The other types of, two other yogas that I really like. One is called restorative, and one is called yin. Yin works connective tissues, it works the fascia, which is just an amazing, amazing connective tissue in the body. It works the tendons, the ligaments, the bones, the cartilage, that's yin. The other practice that I really love, which is very complementary to these strong, hard, muscular types of yoga is restorative, where you lay over blocks or blankets, and you're trying to really get the body in homeostasis. It calms the mind, it calms the brain. It calms all of the systems, the cardiovascular system, the neuromuscular system. All these systems of the body, the hormone, the endocrine system, it makes all of that come into alignment in homeostasis. It's a beautiful practice, it's called restorative.
You know, there's something for everybody, and that was only a few. There kundalini, there's all these other styles, too, there's [bark 00:32:43], there's so many different kinds. The most important thing is that you find one that works for you personally. Howard, you like hot yoga, I don't. It all is good, it's all good, it doesn't matter, it's all great.
Howard: Well, to go with my boys and other dentist friends, whatever, I go to several of them. There are all pros and cons. Sumits, I love the most, because they play music. Bikram, you know, growing up going to Catholic mass, Bikram is like Catholic mass.
Howard: I mean, if you talk to the person next to you, you get scolded.
Juli: You can't get water sometimes.
Howard: You what?
Juli: You can't get water sometimes.
Howard: Oh, I know, you can't even take a drink for the first thirty minutes, it's basically that church mentality.
Juli: There's a purpose to that, you know.
Howard: And what is that?
Juli: It's about getting over your mental fluctuations. Your mind is going, I hate this, I hate this. This is so unfair. Yet, you're there in it, and you're working on that acceptance of what is. That's how you alluded to your dental practice, when you came in and they were going to, you know, all your patients were cancelling, and you were, oh, that's what is, okay, let's move on. Next pose, next patient.
Howard: Yeah, nothing has calmed me down more in my life than bikram yoga, and taking a sleep study course, where I started learning about sleep, and as he's going through sleep hygiene, I'm like, oh my god, I violate every single rule. I go to sleep with the big screen TV on, I have lights, just making sleep routine where I go to sleep this time, there's no electronics on, there's no phone on, there's no nothing. And if you wake up in the middle of the night, tough, you're just going to lay there, you're not going to leave your room until 4:45 a.m., so if it's three, just deal with it and you eventually just fall back to sleep or whatever.
Sleep hygiene and yoga is just, to get a good night's rest, I spent all those years, you know, eleven o'clock, watching those Steven Colbert and the Daily Show, and all those things, and I should have been asleep. I should have been asleep.
Juli: Your eyes and your brain, by the way, Howard. There's a direct relationship between your eyes and your brain. You want to play for a minute?
Juli: Okay. I want you to look forward, you know, and stare at something for just a moment, and notice the activity of your brain. Then I want you to lift your eyes up, and lower your eyes down and bring your eyes left and bring your eyes right, and bring your eyes up, and bring your eyes down, and bring your eyes left and bring your eyes right, and then stare forward. Forward. Now, you can relax. Do you feel something happening in your brain when you have the movement of the eye and the brain's activity, and your eyes just being focused, centered, and straight?
There is a direct relationship between the eyes and the brain, and it's called a drishti. When you're holding your foot with your leg up in the air, you know, you're holding it like this, for example, your drishti is straight ahead. It keeps your mind calm. If you're looking all over the room, you're falling out of the pose, because your mind is active. This is really important because when we do dentistry, and when we're reading and when we're doing active things, our eyes are all over the place, like a pinball, in a ball in a machine. It's ricocheting everywhere.
If we can, we need to just, for a moment, just look forward and just quiet our mind for a moment. I will literally sometimes go in the bathroom and just sit down and be quiet, for a moment, Just to get away from it all, and just hibernate for a moment, just sit in there.
Howard: There's probably lots and lots of dentists, I would estimate over a hundred dentists listening right now who's got kids in school, and the teacher is telling them the kid is ADD and should take a pill. What would your thoughts be on that? I mean, I know I'm a dentist and you're a hygienist, but what is your ...
Juli: Here what I say about that, and I talk about this when I lecture. I want to know why, physical education class, whether it's pilates, whether it's yoga, whether it's weight lifting, whether it's swimming, whatever it is. Why have those physical education classes been taken out of schools for children? Along with art, along with music. And yet we ask kids to sit in these wooden chairs for six hours a day. There is no freaking way kids can do that.
The question I have is, why is physical education class not part of the dental school or dental hygiene curriculum? It should be one of the classes you take, you take chemistry, you take dental anatomy, you take whatever, pharmacology, whatever. Why can't a physical education class be part of that curriculum? Because you would learn that in order to be a dentist, you have to move your body. That's part and parcel for doing dentistry. If you don't have that paradigm set up initially, you don't know that. It's too foreign. You have to then go and do movement, it's not part of who you are. Do you understand what I'm saying?
Howard: I think it's amazing. I never have once ever thought about why there wasn't physical education in ...
Juli: It's stupid.
Howard: Because I had it in undergrad.
Juli: And kids, you can't do that to kids. I don't, I think ADD is way overprescribed, and you know, I'm sorry, because the kids are suffering, and it's because, it's because of one thing, that the teacher has to have control of thirty-plus kids, and in order for her to have control, she has to have everybody cookie-cuttered. Well, guess what. Kids are not cookie-cutters. Every kid learns very differently, some kids learn kinesthetically, some kids learn verbally, some kids learn auditorily, as you know.
Michael Jordan is one of those kinesthetic learners. You know, put him in a chair for a day, he's not going to sit there. He has to move. We are just killing our kids. You know, I teach educational psychology, that's my Master's degree, so I'm not foreign to this. I think it's pathetic, I really do. I don't want to get on a soapbox about it, I do lecture about it. This is part of my lecture, why is physical education not part of schooling?
Howard: Well, I want to get your lecture on Dentaltown. We put up 350 courses, they've been viewed over half a million times, because dentists, it's just so much nicer to be laying in your couch on your iPad and watch a course than having to ... Like right now, the ADA convention is on. People ask me, "You going to go to the ADA convention?" It's like, wow, do you really want to fly to D.C., stay in a hotel, to go listen to Juli lecture there, or do you want to sit there and crawl up on your couch and turn on your iPad and go to Dentaltown. The views are, they're insane, I mean, they passed half a million views. I also thought it might be cool if you tied it into book. I'm talking about your book, author of Mind Your Body. Can you get that on Amazon right now?
Juli: Yeah, you can get it on Amazon, easy. No worry.
Howard: You should do a course on Dentaltown where they subscribe and pay for your course, they get your book, they get to listen to the author for an hour, and because the one thing all the dental mentors and consultants will tell you is that, when you're going in to help a dentist turn their office around, you're trying to consult in that, basically 80 percent of the game is an armchair psychologist. You're trying to get that dentist's head on straight, you got to reframe how he looks at things.
Juli: I can't agree with you more.
Howard: If you can get that doc's head on right, and you can get that head happy and healthy, everything falls in place. That's why I called you, you didn't call me on that podcast. That'd why I think you should do an online C course, tie it into your book, they pay for your course, they get a book shipped to them, they get a speak-to-the-author, and since it's internet, your course, it can be thirty minutes, an hour, three days, forty nights.
If a dentist gets their head on straight, everything falls in line. If your head's on wrong, I mean, oh, yeah. I mean, we could both talk about this forever, and we know it because we're over fifty, and they don't know because they're under thirty. They're going to have to fall down for a decade before they realize that some of this is your attitude, some of this the way you look at ...
Juli: They're not listening to the whisper.
Juli: They're not listening to that first time their back hurts or their neck hurts, and they go, oh, it's okay, I got to work. They got to do yoga, they got to do pilates, they got to do something that moves them intelligently.
Howard: I'm going to tell them something, too. They got to use that damn dental mirror, and they got to put on loupes. As young as your eye is, and I know you can just look straight at it, and it's so tempting to look straight at it, and it takes a massive amount of discipline to say, I'm not going to it. I'm going to put on my loupes, I'm going to sit up straight, I'm going to look through that mirror, because your tiger mentality just wants to stick your entire head inside their mouth and twist it up underneath the roof of their mouth, and you do that for ten, twenty, thirty years, there's going to be a big price to pay.
Juli: Yeah. You know, I used to teach in a dental school. I would often snap photos of these young dentists, and I would just get so sad, because their biomechanics were just ridiculous. You know, it's funny, Howard, when I asked David, what was it about his loupes that sort of helped him so much. He uses six whatever power, whatever he uses there, whatever. He said he could see, he could finally see. You know, when you have loupes, it keeps the distance so that your neck isn't craning.
You know, Howard, this is an interesting fact that you'll like to hear. The neck weighs about fifteen to twenty-five pounds, approximately. Some heads are heavier than others. I would say yours is probably at the twenty-five end, mine is probably at the fifteen end, but we won't talk about that.
Howard: Hey, you got five pounds of hair, I'm bald, my head should weight less than yours.
Juli: But your brain is bigger than mine, and the brain is fat and water. Anyway, here's the thing, for every inch that your head is craned forward, it doubles in weight. If your head is off by an inch, you go from fifteen to thirty. If your head is twenty-five pounds, it goes from twenty-five to fifty. You go two inches, you're going to like a hundred pounds your head weighs. Your head is like a bowling ball on a Tootsie Roll pop, where the Tootsie Roll, oh, excuse me, the stick is like your spine, and you've got the hard casing, which is like your skull, and you got the Tootsie Roll inside of it, which is like your brain and your muscles, and you've got this bowling ball hanging off of it. You wonder why your neck hurts. If you had loupes, it would keep the biomechanics tight because you wouldn't be craning your neck.
The other thing I would say about that is, I say this all the time when I lecture is that, you know, dentistry, clinical dentistry is an athletic event. You have to have muscular endurance, you have to have strength, you have to have flexibility, you have to have all those things that an athlete would need. If you don't come from a "ready" position, you're screwed. Let me explain what I mean by that. Give me any sport, and I'll show you what the biomechanics is. So tell me any sport.
Howard: Football, NFL, go Cardinals.
Juli: In football, they're down and forward, right, you're down and forward on the line of scrimmage. Give me another sport.
Juli: Basketball. When they shoot the basket, the body is forward and upward, right? It's not vertical, it's forward and upward. When you do dentistry, you have to do it leaning in from your waist forward. It's called anteversion, where you're sort of pitched a little bit forward on your chair, so that you're not rounding your back to get to the person, but that you're lengthening your spine to get to the person. I talk a lot about this, it's a new thing of thinking, it's a new way of thinking, but I think that dentistry and dental hygiene clinical is an athletic event.
Howard: Talk about your book, Mind Your Body. Mind Your Body by Juli Kagan, K-A-G-A-N, on Amazon.com. You should do a book review of that for the magazine or the website or something. But talk about your book.
Juli: Well, my book was written a long time ago, like 2008, and I wrote it because I was a Pilates teacher at the time, as well as a dental hygiene, and my forte in the dental profession is being able to go into dental schools where I taught for sixteen years, and look at a student, and say, "Here's what they need to fix in order to get their spine and their arms and their hands to work properly." Because students don't know what to do, and a lot of teachers wouldn't know how to get them to be where they needed to be, so they'd call me and say, "How do I fix this person?"
I thought, you know what? I want to write a book that will help people sit in a chair more comfortably, so they sit with their spine straight, they sit tall and strong and they feel better when they're working at a chair, at a desk. I originally wrote the manuscript for dental professions, and then I spoke to my publisher, the publisher, and they said, "You know what? It's too confining. Open it up to people who sit." So it became from the dental to the seated professional. It's a great book because, it's a great book, I sound so conceited, but it's a great book because ...
Howard: It is a great book.
Juli: It's got three sections. The first section is about releasing specific joints. The second section is the literal pilates mat workout. The third section are exercises that a person can do at a chair or at a desk. There's three different ways that the person can use the book. Anybody can contact me and I can help them with specific problems and say, turn to this page for this problem.
Howard: How do they contact me?
Juli: How do they contact me? Julikagan.com.
Howard: Juli spelled J-U-L-I, there's no "e' on it. Your mother did that just to throw everyone a softball curve.
Howard: Juli, J-U-L-I, Kagan, K-A-G-A-N, dot com. What are my listeners going to hear on, what are they going to find on Julikagan.com? What's on that website?
Juli: Well, a lot of it is, I have two main programs that I really love teaching, which is Mind Your Body, and Mind Your Breath. We didn't talk about breath today, and that's fine. There's a direct correlation like you had earlier with your eyes and your brain, there's a direct correlation between your breath and the calmness of your mind. If people are hyperventilating, their mind is crazy. If people breathe calmly, their mind is calm.
That's why we say to a patient before we give an injection, can you take a breath for me? It calms the mind. When we're working, here's the problem, Howard, when we work, we work down and forward and it closes off our lungs, and we wonder at the end of the day why we're so tired. Because we're not breathing fully. We're not breathing, so there's a direct relationship between our breath, and our mind, and our body.
Howard: You know what?
Juli: One second. On my website is my Mind Your Body, and Mind Your Breath. Then I do adventures, I do retreats, I go around the world and I teach yoga, I teach pilates. I'm very lucky, I'm very lucky, so that's sort of what I do.
Howard: I have one friend, and I don't want to say his name, because I know Ken is going to know I'm talking about him. Over the last thirty years, twenty-five times I've gone by his office, he'll be giving a shot, and then he puts the shot on the tray, and then he stands up, and as he walks into the aisle or whatever where I'm at, he's just like, hooooooo. It's like he was, he always holds his breath during the entire shot, and then he pulls out, puts it down, he stands up, and just lets that air out, and you're thinking, damn, dude. I've asked him before, I said, "You don't like giving shots, do you?" He goes, "No, I hate them." I think a big part of it is, he's holding his breath the whole time.
Juli: Direct relationship, and I guarantee ...
Howard: What would you tell, what would you tell Ken to do?
Juli: I guarantee his patients feel that.
Howard: What should Ken do, specifically?
Juli: Breathe in for five, breathe out for five. As he aspirates, breathe in for two, as he gives the injection, breathe out for five. Exhaling is for calming, inhaling is inspiring. If he exhales longer than he inhales, he will calm his own central nervous system down as he's giving the injection. The worst thing he's doing is he's holding his breath, because he's holding energy. His patients, I guarantee you, feel that energy.
I guarantee you his patients would say, yeah, he doesn't give a great injection. If he breathed easily, his patients would feel that. It comes through the metal. And I know I sound a little woo-woo, I sound a little esoteric, but I truly believe that. We hold energy, we are electric. That's why we have electroencephalograms and electrocardiograms, we are electric. People feel our energy, and yoga moves the energy. That's why we feel so good when we're done. It moves all the energy in our body and it aligns it up. That's why we feel so good after yoga, because it's really moving energy.
Howard: Well, I could just tell, I mean, when he walks out, you could just tell that. He just walked out of a very ...
Howard: Very stressful situation. He just comes out and just does like, hoooooo.
Juli: Yeah, and you can feel it.
Howard: His face is, yeah, he doesn't look happy or anything. He looks like he just did something that was bad or something.
Howard: Yeah, it was bad. You know, another reason I want you to put that course up is, everybody who puts an online course up, they always tell me, speaking committees, there's about 278 dental societies that hire speakers, and it's all volunteers. The executive director will go get three people to raise their hands, then they'll give them specific instructions. Pick the next speakers, you find one in endo, you find one in ortho, you find one in whatever. The number one complaint of every dental convention known to man has always been, there was nothing for my staff.
That's why they have practice management, this is for the staff. Every, so then this person will go on to Dentaltown, where everybody just does an hour, and it's kind of like their debut. It's kind of like, so a guy who wants to find an endo speaker, he'll go listen to six guys, one hour each, and say, well, I really like the fifth one.
Juli: Hey, Howard, I want to share that one of my favorite things to do actually, one of the favorite things to do, other than work with the body in front of me, because that's my specialty, you come to me with a problem and I fix your specific problem. I love doing lunch and learn sort of gifts to dental offices. As an example, if a dental team got a bonus, they would hire me to come in and do a two or three hour session with them, teach them about biomechanics, teach them about what they can do in their chair. Then I do a little yoga class with them. It's a gift that the dentist gives the staff, and they hire me to do that. That's one of my favorite things to do. I just wanted to share that with you and your listeners.
Howard: When you show up, you have a big box of jelly doughnuts, too, just the [inaudible 00:52:20] rep.
Howard: Hey, you said ...
Juli: No, I bring fruit. I bring fruit, no, I'm kidding.
Howard: You said ergonomics. When you go to these conventions right now, there's a lot of people pushing ergonomic chairs. You see some people, there's so many different shaped chairs, some of them look like a horse saddle, some of them look like a teepee. Talk about that, is that marketing or myth?
Juli: It's real simple. Get one that fits for you, period. You know I am kind of thin, and I'm kind of boney. My ischial tuberosities are my sit bones. I don't sit easily on a saddle, it hurts me. I have to sit in a different chair, it's better for my butt. Everybody has a different body, and what might work for one may not work for another, so I always say, test drive a chair. Just test drive it.
Howard: Okay, what do you think about these dental receptionists, if you go into twenty-five dental offices in a row, you'll find one receptionist sitting on a ball, a big ball that's in a rack with four wheels on it, because if she didn't have the rack, the ball would be rolling all around. She basically sits on a ball, and a hundred percent of them totally believe in it, love it, and what they always tell me is they say, well, if you sit on a chair, all your muscles go limp, but when you sit on a ball, your core muscles ... What do you think about a dental receptionist who's sitting on the phone all day sitting on a ball?
Juli: Here's what I think. If it works for you, use it. If it doesn't work for you, don't fight it. I will say to you about the ball, it is very good, because it works all these little ancillary muscles. All these little muscles get recruited to help with the balancing. However, Howard, you have to have a learning curve to sit on that chair. If you try to sit on a chair, a ball, excuse me, if you try to sit on a ball the first day, you're going to be in pain at the end of the day, because your body is not used to doing all these little things in order to sit upright. But if one day you're on for an hour, and the next day, you're on, or fifteen minutes, then thirty minutes, and then forty-five minutes, and you learn to be on the ball, it's great.
But again, is it the right height? Can it be the right height next to the computer? There are so many variables, that it's hard for me to say. I just say get a chair that works for you that you're in comfortably. Some people don't like the armrests, some people do like the armrests. Some people like the saddle. What I will say that if you're anteverted, you're much better off.
Howard: Okay, I'll go back to my observation, my personal observation. If you go into twenty-five dental offices, one of them, one out of every twenty-five has got a deal in the break room where they get in there and they hook their feet in there, and then they lean back, and now they're upside down hanging. Because they're always complaining about lower back problems.
Juli: Inversion? Inversion machines?
Howard: Yeah, they tip back, so the next thing you know, they're basically hanging by their ankles upside down, because they have back issues. What do you think of that?
Juli: I personally love inverting. I do headstands, I do handstands daily. I do shoulder stand every day, it's great for your brain, it's great for your circulation of your legs. However, that being said, I have a little, little reluctancy on the inversion machines because it's very passive. Which means that the musculature is not holding you up. So if you're doing a headstand or you're doing a shoulder stand or you're doing a handstand, the muscles of your body are inverting you.
When you're in a machine, you're passive. What I'm concerned about is that you get all this openness and this spaciousness, which is delightful and phenomenal, but flip the thing back up and you get gravity compressing all that down. That's a concern for me. If you don't have the musculature supporting that spaciousness that you've created. Do you understand what I'm saying?
Howard: I do, I do.
Juli: I'm reluctant to go on these inversion machines, my dad has one. I'm reluctant to recommend them, because I'm concerned about what happens when you come out of it, not when you're in it. Does that make sense?
Howard: It does make sense. Here's what I want to do for your close. We're at fifty-seven minutes, I only get you for three more minutes. Then you're going to hang up the hone and call David, and say, "Howard said that he's the luckiest man on earth, being married to you." I want you to do this. You know more than I do. I've been in Phoenix twenty-eight years, and every year, one to three dentists commit suicide. Eighteen percent will go to inpatient care to the Betty Ford Center for at least 90 to 120 days, The profession has been known to have burn-out ...
Howard: Suicide, all that. You're, if someone said to me, who in dentistry has the most inner joy, I'd say Juli Kagan.
Juli: You know, I always sign off, I am in joy.
Howard: I am in joy, do you?
Juli: I am is "soham" in Sanskrit, I am ... in J-O-Y, and I am in gratitude is always my tagline. I just posted on Facebook an instagram before I got on here. It says, I am in joy, I am in gratitude. So thank you for saying that, because if you said that on your volition, I am, I am in joy, I am in gratitude.
Howard: Well, I know, I just said that. That came from the heart.
Juli: That's crazy.
Howard: I want you to say, I want you to talk this dentist. He's driving to work, he's burned out, he's fried. The only relief he gets is after work, he drinks two Buds and pops a Vicodin, or he eats a large cheese pizza, and he can't get out of this dental office, because it's the only way he can feed his family. It's the only thing he knows how to do to make six figures. Talk to that guy for three minutes for your close. What exactly should that dentist do? Burned out, fried.
Juli: First off, the first thing I would tell him, believe it or not, is to stand in the earth, stand in the ground with your bare feet, stand in the ground, feel the earth underneath you and look up. Because there's a direct relationship between you looking up and your physiology. It's almost impossible to be depressed if you lift your chest and lift your heart, and look up. That's why it's called light-heartedness.
The first thing I would do is get him in the ground, ground him down, but also, lift up, look up and take deep breaths, big inspirations, less expirations, and I would strongly, strongly encourage them to go to a basic yoga class. Doesn't have to be expensive, just play yoga. Just play with it. Just play yoga. Don't make it hard, don't bring a mentality of, I got to push hard, I got to make this work, I got to do this really strong. Just go there and have some fun with it, and see how you feel after twenty-one days. Just give it a shot, if you don't like it, you never have to go back, you're no worse for the wear. But give it a good shot. That's what I would say.
Howard: I love the way you said, play yoga. That's exactly why I quit golf. It's not fun to go golfing with four dentists that when they miss a shot, they yell profanity, throw a club. The last straw for me was in Maui, and a guy missed his shot, and the dentist took his entire golf bag and threw it in the fountain. I'm like, dude, I don't even like you on the golf course, you're not even my friend. We've already got a stressful career, we got enough stress in life, I want to have fun. Then they sit there like, "Don't talk during golf." It's like some weird religion with a lot of profanity and throwing golf clubs. It's like, play yoga, go in there, play yoga.
Juli: You know, Howard, there's a great teacher in California, Santa Monica, named Bryan Kest, who brought yoga to California, he was pretty much the first guy. He says, "Don't bring your stress mentality into this practice, because you don't want to be nurturing and nourishing that attitude. Bring a calm mind and nurture that." That's what yoga is about. It's not about bringing that, what he calls, that shit into your yoga mat. Because he doesn't want that nurtured.
Howard: All the men out there, if you're not sure about yoga, just go to yoga, just take a lawn chair, sit in the back of the room, watch all those girls do yoga for an hour, I swear to God ...
Juli: In their skimpy outfits.
Howard: Oh, my god, you'll be hooked.
Juli: I mean, the ratio is crazy.
Howard: Yeah, there's usually like three guys and fifty hot women in bikinis. That's kind of a motivator in and of itself. Hey, Juli, you're an amazing woman, I love your karma, I love your inner joy, and you've always been a delight. That's why I want to push you out more. I hope you do an online C course. E-mail me something where I can post something, because you said 2008 is an old book, that ain't old at all. I mean, half the, all my favorite books that I do a second read on, they're all twenty, thirty, forty, a hundred years old.
Juli: Oh, great. I'm on my way. Actually someone yesterday inspired me, a girlfriend of mine who I do yoga with, she said, "You need to write your next book on joy." I was like, okay.
Howard: Especially in our profession, there's a lot of ... Police officers are having it, too, there's so much bad press on police officers that all the good ones are just feeling, they don't get any joy out of their career anymore. Everybody thinks they're an abusive person, and they're out there trying to keep everyone safe. Hey, thank you so much for spending an hour.
Juli: Namaste, I honor the light in you, I honor who you are, and the essence of who you are, the love in you. I honor it so much. Thank you, thank you, Howard, for bringing so much light to so many, so many people.
Howard: Well, same back at you, namaste to you, Juli. Have a rocking good day. Bye-bye.
Juli: Thank you.